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Wednesday, August 10, 2005
The Theory of Evolution... of Theories

The Intelligent Design debate continues, fueled by President Bush's recent comment that "Part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought." The problem is that Intelligent Design theory (or ID for short) is not a scientific theory at all. ID is an attempt to "prove" that God (or, in some versions, space aliens) created human beings, using the fact that we don't yet know everything about the universe. It's a philosophical belief, not a scientific one.

It's depressing that some people feel there is a competition between science and religion. Science is merely a tool like any other; a method of using our intelligence to investigate the world around us. It's not science's fault that Liberals have tried to use it to "prove" that God is non-existent or irrelevant. Of course, it isn't possible to prove such a thing; all a religious person has to ask is, "So who wrote all the laws of Nature that scientists are trying to learn? Who determined the value of Pi, the speed of light or Planck's Constant?"

ID is an attempt to disprove the idea that humans evolved through natural selection, by pointing out the fact that there are questions the current theory of evolution doesn't answer. The general argument is that some things are so complex that they must have been deliberately designed; they cannot have evolved naturally over any length of time. There is no actual proof of external interference, however. ID proponents claim that since evolution by natural selection cannot explain everything, the theory must be invalid or incomplete. While that's certainly possible, it doesn't mean that those things can't possibly be explained by further scientific investigation.

Unfortunately, that's precisely how scientific advancement works -- by finding ways to explain what current theories cannot. Science does not mean pointing out that something is not yet fully understood, and deducing that it must therefore have been authored by an outside agency.

Consider the history of another branch of science. Sir Isaac Newton is most well known for the discovery of the laws of gravity. In 1687, he published Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica, three books that forever changed the course of science. The first two dealt with the laws of motion and forces, the third with gravity. Falling objects accelerate at a rate of 32 feet per second, every second they fall -- a rock dropped off a tall building will fall 32 feet, then 64, then 96, and so on until stopped by the ground, or an inconvenient passer-by. Newtonian physics seemed to explain everything very well for centuries.

As scientists dug deeper into the limits of the physical universe, cracks began to show at the edges of Newton's laws -- situations were found that the accepted theories couldn't explain. No one could predict the relationship and interactions between matter and energy on the very large and very small scale using only Newtonian physics. Along came Albert Einstein, with a whole new explanation of physical science. Did that mean Newton was wrong? Did gravity suddenly stop working when quantum theory was discovered? Of course not. Under local conditions, Newtonian physics are just as applicable as ever. Force still equals mass times acceleration. He simply didn't cover everything -- a fault of the available technology of his time as much as anything else.

A century or so later, Einsteinian physics also begins to show cracks around the edges. There are some situations in which the known laws of quantum mechanics don't seem to apply. Why does time itself seem to act differently under extreme circumstances, like in the presence of black holes? ID as applied to physics would simply conclude that black holes must be alien artifacts. Suppose a new kind of particle is discovered that travels faster than light, like the tachyon. Would that make Einstein wrong? Would his theories become garbage? Of course not. Einsteinian physics would explain and predict the normal interactions of matter and energy as well as ever. His theories simply couldn't cover everything, again due -- at least in part -- to the limitations of his time and available technology.

Even today, Newtonian physics are more than adequate for most everyday situations. Falling objects still accelerate in Earth's gravity at 32 feet per second per second. You don't need string theory to calculate how long it takes a rock to fall, but the fact that such advanced theories exist does not invalidate previous ones. In fact, more advanced theories could not even exist without the groundwork they provide. And at no point should anyone decide that there are Things We Just Cannot Explain, and stop trying to understand them. The same holds true for evolutionary theory as physics.

The laws governing heredity were first published in 1866 by Gregor Mendel, a monk experimenting with pea plants. Plants, like animals, generally have offspring that almost exactly resemble them. He realised that some traits are inherited, but that some variations of those traits are dominant over others. The dominant characteristic would appear in all the results of cross-breeding with plants that had different traits. Even so, the recessive variations don't disappear -- they can return in later generations, if combined with another plant carrying them, though neither plant currently shows the recessive characteristic. Two brown-eyed parents might have a blue-eyed child, if each parent has a blue-eyed ancestor somewhere in their past. Mendel codified the rules by which farmers and breeders of all sorts of plants and animals had operated for thousands of years, without understanding the science behind them.

Mendel's theories didn't cover everything, however. As exploration of the Earth's past progressed, ancient remains had been found that belonged to no living creatures... but which were similar in many ways. Obviously, there was some relationship between modern and ancient creatures, despite the differences. A link must have existed between animals past and present, with creatures slowly changing over vast amounts of time. Enter Darwin, and the theory of evolution by natural selection. Though the concept dates back to the ancient Greeks, Darwin codified the laws governing evolution as Mendel did the laws of heredity... and Newton and Einstein did for physics. Once again, science evolved from understanding the narrow focus and short term to the broad scope and long term, building on the work that had gone before.

Scientific evaluation of the past shows that as environmental conditions change over the course of millions of years, creatures slowly adapt; those who have a slight advantage live longer or better lives, and have more offspring. Due to natural variation, some of their descendants may be even slightly better able to survive, and so on. Did this invalidate Mendel's theories? Were all horse, cow and dog breeders put out of business? Did children no longer resemble their parents? Of course not. In the short term -- hundreds of years, even thousands -- the theory that inherited characteristics breed true is still solid. Your children will still look very much like you, or your parents. When people buy a dog, they don't need to worry what its descendants will look like in a million years.

Now, more than a hundred years on, there are some questions unanswered by current evolutionary theory. So, does that mean Darwin was wrong -- that nothing evolves? Does that mean we should burn that branch of science, and stop investigating our own past using scientific methods? Should we just mark that blank area on the chalkboard, "God did this part" and move on to something else? That doesn't make any sense. That doesn't agree with humanity's history of using our intelligence to discover how things work. Like physics before the advent of Einstein or Stephen W. Hawking, evolutionary science is in need of more investigation when there are unanswered questions, not less. When unanswered questions arise... that's when science takes the greatest leaps forward.

Today, we have access to tools of which Darwin could not even dream. We understand the workings of chromosomes and DNA, and have mapped the very genes that make us human. Turning our backs on knowledge has never really been an option, and deciding that an outside agency must have created us simply because we don't have a more clear mundane explanation YET is not a step forward.

Posted at Wednesday, August 10, 2005 by CavalierX

Raposa
August 10, 2005   10:45 PM PDT
 
I always saw Intelligent Design as an explanation of why certain things ended up a certain way, but not some magic wand to cover the 'how'. Believing that God is involved doesn't stop us from wondering and trying to find out how He did it.
JM
August 11, 2005   04:27 AM PDT
 
You're absolutely right, Raposa -- science tells us HOW things work, but WHY is up to philosophy or religion. There is no conflict, or shouldn't be.
Adam
August 11, 2005   03:24 PM PDT
 
I don’t really like most of the ID teachings. However evolution theory has many holes. There are a lot of questions regarding the existence of matter and energy that evolution theory simply can not answer. There are also a lot of unanswered questions about the very beginnings of life. Life has vet to be created in a laboratory from inorganic matter. Yes I know someone was able to make a lot of tar with few amino acids as byproducts. That experiment has not been successfully reproduced and requires an oxygen free environment. Simply put it take a lot of blind faith to believe the universe spontaneously creating itself. We may have concrete answers at some point in the future, but it will probably not be in our lifetimes. This brings me to a simple question that I have never had answered. Why will evolutionists not admit that it takes a lot of faith to believe their theories concerning the existence of the universe and life that can be found here on Earth? They seem to want to attack those that believe in creationism because creationism is all about faith. Believing the universe spontaneously created itself takes just as much faith as believing God created it.
JM
August 11, 2005   03:46 PM PDT
 
>There are a lot of questions
>regarding the existence of matter
>and energy that evolution theory
>simply can not answer.

Precisely, but evolutionary theory was never supposed to address those things -- just the mechanism by which living creatures alter over time, which it does very well. As I said, if there are questions, more research to come up with an explanation is called for.
Adam
August 11, 2005   04:06 PM PDT
 
The creation of energy and matter fall more along the lines of astrophysics anyway. The point I was trying to make was that with our current level of understanding it take the same amount of faith to believe that God does not exist as it does to believe God does exist. Both sides require a lot of faith in the unknown.
The Outlaw Michael Cosyns
August 11, 2005   06:14 PM PDT
 
I think the emergence of ID is a bad sign. While I always thought it was a typical American phenomeneon, I was recently very embarrassed to learn one of the would-be popes, Christoph Schoenborn, defended it.

Your take, using Newtons and Einsteinds theories, is a very powerful argument in favour of the Evolution Theory. I had not looked at it this way yet. Thanks.
mightysamurai
August 11, 2005   06:14 PM PDT
 
I should note that Newton did not technically discover the laws of gravity. He took concepts from previous scientists such as Johannes Kepler and Tycho Brahe and refined them into his laws of gravity.
JM
August 11, 2005   06:35 PM PDT
 
>it take the same amount of faith
>to believe that God does not exist
>as it does to believe God does
>exist.

That's probably true, but science in no way refutes or affirms divine existence.
JM
August 11, 2005   06:39 PM PDT
 
>He took concepts from previous
>scientists such as Johannes Kepler
>and Tycho Brahe

Well, all scientists stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before. I think my middle school science teacher told me that. :)
RA
August 11, 2005   06:40 PM PDT
 
Evolution is not based on science. It is long on speculation and short on scientific evidence. According to the science we know today evolution is impossible.

Life cannot be generated from inert chemicals. All species only reproduce their own species. No, none, nada, zip evidence that any species has ever reproduced a different species. The fossil record (99.9% complete) shows no transitional forms where millions would be required. Dating methods are ponsi scams and use circular reasoning. The enormous complexity of life shows how impossible it would be for an accident to produce higer, more complex systems. No mechanism for changing disipated heat energy into useful energy again > the Big Bang is a Big Bust.

There is much, much more. You don't have to teach ID in schools. Just don't censor the encyclopedic quantity of scientific evidence that says evolution is impossible. Fair and balanced anyone?
JM
August 11, 2005   06:47 PM PDT
 
>There is much, much more.

I'm sure there is. I've heard of athiests (people who don't believe in God), but until now, I've never heard of ascientists (people who don't believe in science). What could possibly be next -- the Sun moves around the Earth, disease is caused by elf arrows, thunder is a sign of God's wrath?

>scientific evidence that says
>evolution is impossible

Well, all the farmers who labored for centuries to bring us bigger ears of corn, fluffier sheep and milk cows are going to be very surprised.
JM
August 11, 2005   08:22 PM PDT
 
>Your take, using Newtons and
>Einsteinds theories, is a very
>powerful argument in favour of
>the Evolution Theory. I had not
>looked at it this way yet.

Thanks for seeing it the way I was trying to say it.
Hughes
August 12, 2005   02:36 AM PDT
 
>Turning our backs on knowledge has >never reallyÊbeen an option, and >deciding that an outside agency must >have createdÊus simplyÊbecause we don't >have a more clearÊmundane explanation >YET is not a step forward.

How long should we wait for a clear mundane explanation to come about?
In the beginning it was assumed by Darwin that all the cells and inner workings of those cells were gelatin. Boy did we have a lot to learn, eh?

Fact is that the theory isn't a step backward at all. Rather, it uses the same principles involved in the SETI project or any archeological dig. Finding an artifact, and identifying it as coming from an intelligent source is not hard to do.
JM
August 12, 2005   03:57 AM PDT
 
>Boy did we have a lot to learn, eh?

We always do. We always will. That's the nature of science.

>Fact is that the theory isn't a step
>backward at all.

Assuming that we will never know the answer to something because we don't now, and therefore assuming it's some kind of alien creation, is not science. See my black hole analogy above.

>Finding an artifact, and identifying
>it as coming from an intelligent
>source is not hard to do.

People are not artifacts.
Name
August 12, 2005   09:49 AM PDT
 
>Assuming that we will never know the
>answer to something because we don't
>now, and therefore assuming it's some
>kind of alien creation, is not science.
>See my black hole analogy above.

Not "assuming" but following the evidence where it leads. And ID doesn't deny darwinism is at work, it only points out that it's inadequate to explain the origins of the vast amounts of information in the DNA.

>>Finding an artifact, and identifying
>>it as coming from an intelligent
>>source is not hard to do.

>People are not artifacts.

No, but just as radio waves are artifacts to the SETI project, and pottery is to an archeologist. So to the highly specialized information found in the DNA (a language of Cells) is an artifact of the same ilk as the other two. In essence, the scientist who comes across a radio wave with the same amount of specified information as found in DNA, would have to at least consider that it came from an intelligent source.
Psychic Ferret
August 12, 2005   09:56 AM PDT
 
Here we go (again) -

Posted by RA:
"Evolution is not based on science. It is long on speculation and short on scientific evidence."

You seem to have very little understanding of what constitutes science. Please refer to the following links for a brief primer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil.html
And just for kicks, read:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp under the heading ‘Evolution is just a theory.’

"According to the science we know today evolution is impossible."

It occurs all of the time. Again, for a brief introduction, refer to the following:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

"Life cannot be generated from inert chemicals."

The process that you are referring to here is abiogenesis. It is a separate and distinct process from evolution. Once abiogenesis occurs, then evolution takes over. If you are going to dispute evolution, please learn the background of the discipline you are attempting to talk about. For more information, please refer to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

"All species only reproduce their own species. No, none, nada, zip evidence that any species has ever reproduced a different species."

Sorry for repeating myself, but please refer to the following:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
And
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp under the heading ‘No new species have been produced.’

"The fossil record (99.9% complete) shows no transitional forms where millions would be required."

The fossil record is 99.9% complete - where did you get this statistic from? In order to know that, you must first know how many fossils exist in the entire world. Then you can perform the math to discern how many fossils are left to discover. The creationist reasoning that there are no transitional forms is a straw man. If a scientist finds a transitional form, the creationist argues that there are now two gaps, one on either side of the transitional form. So no matter how many gaps are filled by scientists, it merely creates more 'evidence' to the creationist.

"Dating methods are ponsi scams and use circular reasoning."

Ponzi (check your spelling) scams and circular reasoning are 2 different things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
If you are trying to argue that evolution is a tautology (circular reasoning), see the following (under the heading ‘Natural selection as tautology.’):
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp
If you are attempting to dispute radiocarbon dating, read up on it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dating

"The enormous complexity of life shows how impossible it would be for an accident to produce higer, more complex systems."

This is the whole of the argument for ID. Again, refer to the following:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp under the heading ‘No new species have been produced.’

"No mechanism for changing disipated heat energy into useful energy again"

And this proves what exactly? This has nothing to do with evolution, which is what you are attempting to dispute.

"the Big Bang is a Big Bust."

Another straw man. It has nothing to do with the origin of life so much as the origin of the universe. Refer to the following:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang

"There is much, much more."

I'm sure there is. And all of it has been disputed thoroughly by reputable scientists.

"You don't have to teach ID in schools. Just don't censor the encyclopedic quantity of scientific evidence that says evolution is impossible. Fair and balanced anyone?"

If you can find some real evidence, show it to the world. You will be talked about in history and science books for generations. If all you've got is what you've thrown out so far, it doesn't constitute an encyclopedia.

In short, your scientific illiteracy is appalling.
Neal Lang
August 12, 2005   01:41 PM PDT
 
"Well, all the farmers who labored for centuries to bring us bigger ears of corn, fluffier sheep and milk cows are going to be very surprised."

Hmmm! Thank you for your most insightful defense of "ID". I believe "all the farmers", along with Gregor Mendel, offer a most elegant proof of "Intelligent Design", IMMHO. If not "ID", then just what would you call "selective breeding"?
John
August 12, 2005   02:57 PM PDT
 
Science neither presupposes the existence or the non-existence of God. The true scientist uncovers facts of the world around them. However, evolutionists go beyond the realm of science by calling their interpretation of the limited known data as being factual. Interpretation is subjective and based on presuppositions; in the current argument, the existence or non-existence of God. One could use the same arguments that evolutionists use to demonstrate creationism.

For example, the evolutionist says:
"If evolution is true, we should expect to see certain things in the world around us."

The ID proponents can make an equal statement:
"If an intelligent being created the world as it is/was, we should expect to see certain things in the world around us."

One reason why the argument is so vivid is that both scenarios yield many of the same expectations. So both sides are staunch in their defense.

However, the intelligence behind the ID theory provides a much stronger cohesion for all sciences, disciplines and functions such as sociology, psychology, morality and ethics, conscience, spirituality, beauty, will, intelligence and affection, purpose and vision. An evolutionary theory does a poor job at best of accounting for those things.
Neal Lang
August 12, 2005   02:59 PM PDT
 
Joe, the problem with your opinion piece is that it is not those who would defend the "theory" of "Intelligent Design" that are the ones stffling debate and truly robust scientific exploration into the "theory of evolution". Instead, it is the "High Priests of Chaos" who prefer not allowing any discussion of an "ordered evolution" a seat at the table. This is perhaps due to their prejudice (in truth, "Chaos" was invented to replace an "Intelligent Designer") or merely it is do to their "invested interest" in the chosen "faith". If their "theory" were so superior, than why all the angst about even recognizing the arguments of the other side?

Interestingly, a good many of the proponents of "ID" come from the scientific discipline of "mathmatics" (i.e. William A. Dembski - Ph.D., mathematics, University of Chicago where Enrico Fermi first demonstrated nuclear "chain reaction" I believe), which may explain their insistence of an "orderly evolution".

BTW, after the Greek's both St. Augustine and Thomas Acquinas recognized the "fact" of "orderly evolution".

In fact each new discovery in micro-biology seems to confirm the pre-Darwinian science that evolution, like "selective breeding" was based on an orderly, programmed design.

As a computer consultant, Joe, you should know that just as "Chaos" never produced a computer, it is far less likely that "Chaos" would produce anything so complex as say the "human eye"?

Even Charlie Darwin recognized a "Clock Maker" of sorts in his "Gospel of Evolution", a.k.a. "Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection", to wit:

"Variability is not actually caused by man; he only unintentionally exposes organic beings to new conditions of life, and then nature acts on the organisation and causes it to vary. But man can and does select the variations given to him by nature, and thus accumulates them in any desired manner. He thus adapts animals and plants for his own benefit or pleasure."

Of course, this was before his disciples discovered the goddess "Chaos", and accredited her with results of "evolution" instead of "nature".

Neal
RA
August 12, 2005   03:28 PM PDT
 
Dear Ferret;

Give me an example of "abiogenesis". That is evidence that you can create life from inert chemicals. This is typical of evolutionist pseudo science. You invent a word that describes something that is science fiction. Blind faith.

You know less about science than you believe. Evolution is not a theory because it cannot be falsified. A knowledgable scientist would know that evolution is a postulate. A postulate is held in much less asteem than a theory.

Out of every 1000 fossils we find today about 999 are duplicates. We are finding very few new fossils.

Origins must account not only for life but the whole universe itself. The Big bang is an evolutionary humanist postulate at how our universe was birthed. It assumes that it is eternal. It says it expands, stops and collapses in on itself only to regenerate itself with another big bang. Because of the Laws ( a law is the highest scientific evidence you can quote.) of Thermodynamics the universe is using up useful energy and turning it into useless energy ie dissipated heat. How can disipated heat be turned back into useful enery so our eternal universe can regenerate itself? It cannot happen. Only those who believe in nonexistent natural processes can believe in naturalistic evolution ie blind faith.

You are very far beyond the curve on humanistic evolution. Real scientists are seeing the insermountable problems with the postulate. Honest scientists who still want to believe in a naturalistic origins have landed on other planets. Its called panspermia. Spacemen from other worlds have populated the earth. LOL

When you shift the questions of origins to another planet then all sorts of science fiction can be postulated without the bright eye of science bringing up embarrassing facts that make evolution impossible.

Dating is done by radiometric dating. Any where fron 12 -24 dates are spit out of this process. Which, if any of these wide ranging dates, are correct? They go to the non-existent geologic collumn. Then they find out what layer the fossil was found in. Then they pick the date which matches the time perion that part of the collumn was suposedly laid down. These dates of layers are wild ass guesses. Pure speculation using unverifiable assumptions. So they use wild ass guesses to justify guesses in radiometric dating. There is no solid reference for any of the billions and billions of years of dating.

You might be able to help me though. I get confused. Was it cows that waded into salt marshes and turned into whales or was it whales that got beached that grew hoofs and became cows? LOL

It brings back the old Marx brother line, "are you going to believe the story I'm telling you or your own two eyes. LOL
JM
August 12, 2005   05:30 PM PDT
 
>If not "ID", then just what would
>you call "selective breeding"?

I suggest you contemplate the difference between NATURAL selection and ARTIFICIAL selection. If humans can have such an effect on plants and animals in the mere few thousand years we've been working with them, and you accept that as a fact, then why are you so opposed to the idea that the natural environment would also have an effect on plants and animals over hundreds of millions of years... ourselves included?
JM
August 12, 2005   05:40 PM PDT
 
>ID theory provides a much
>stronger cohesion for all sciences,
>disciplines and functions such as
>sociology, psychology, morality
>and ethics, conscience,
>spirituality, beauty, will,
>intelligence and affection, purpose
>and vision.

Yes, it IS much easier to say "well, God just made everything" than to do the research and reconstruction work required to understand how things came to be. None of that has anything to do with the question of whether some outside agency created all plants and animals (including mankind) and buried misleading skeletons underground for some reason, or whether modern life forms evolved from less-complex creatures. Science does not depend on how beautiful the theory sounds.

>An evolutionary theory does a
>poor job at best of accounting for
>those things.

Actually, evolutionary theory does a bang-up job of explaining a whole lot of things. All you have to do is ask, "what purpose would _____ have served, in order to be selected for?"
JM
August 12, 2005   05:52 PM PDT
 
>Joe, the problem with your
>opinion piece is

The problem with your post is that I keep losing track of your argument among the overabundance of sarcastic quotation marks.

>the "High Priests of Chaos"

I have all their albums. Do people still say "albums?"

>Evolution is not a theory because
>it cannot be falsified.

A theory is an explanation of an event or phenomenon derived from the available facts and observations that can be used to reliably predict the outcomes of related events or phenomena. Nothing more.

>"Chaos" never produced a
>computer

And no one ever said that human beings spontaneously assembled out of a chemical mix, except those who enjoy putting up strawmen.

I'll tell you what. You want to claim that life on Earth was designed? First produce solid evidence, unmistakable physical proof of a designer. Stop looking at the world and saying, "It's just too complicated -- it must have been planned." That is NOT SCIENCE.
Psychic Ferret
August 12, 2005   08:43 PM PDT
 
Posted by RA

"Give me an example of "abiogenesis". That is evidence that you can create life from inert chemicals. This is typical of evolutionist pseudo science. You invent a word that describes something that is science fiction. Blind faith."

From Wikipedia - The modern definition of abiogenesis is concerned with the formation of the earliest forms of life on earth from primordial chemicals. This is a significantly different thing from the concept of Aristotelian abiogenesis, which postulated the formation of complex organisms. Different hypotheses for modern abiogenetic processes are currently under debate with no clear frontrunner; see, for example, RNA world hypothesis, proteinoid, Miller experiment.
After you're done there, go to:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
Lastly, all words are 'invented'. That's how language evolves (there's that pesky word again!).

"You know less about science than you believe."

If you insist. But I would hazard a guess that I know more about science than you.

"Evolution is not a theory because it cannot be falsified. A knowledgable scientist would know that evolution is a postulate. A postulate is held in much less asteem than a theory."

Semantics - This ground has already been covered in my rebuttal to paragraph 1 of your original post. Get to some evidence for ID already.

"Out of every 1000 fossils we find today about 999 are duplicates. We are finding very few new fossils."

Where did this statistic come from? I'd really like to get the source and find out for myself. Or did you simply create this number yourself?

"Origins must account not only for life but the whole universe itself. The Big bang is an evolutionary humanist postulate at how our universe was birthed. It assumes that it is eternal. It says it expands, stops and collapses in on itself only to regenerate itself with another big bang"

Again, you are trying to merge the TOE (Theory of Evolution) with Unification Theory, which attempts to bind everything into one simple equation. The Big Bang explains the origin of the universe, abiogenesis explains the origin of life, and evolution explains how that life diversified and prospered.

"Because of the Laws ( a law is the highest scientific evidence you can quote.) of Thermodynamics the universe is using up useful energy and turning it into useless energy ie dissipated heat. How can disipated heat be turned back into useful enery so our eternal universe can regenerate itself? It cannot happen. Only those who believe in nonexistent natural processes can believe in naturalistic evolution ie blind faith."

You're only stating the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, not all of them. But the 2nd LOT only applies in large processes or over long periods of time (see: Fluctuation theorem). And regarding your statement that heat is not useful energy, turn off all of your heat during the winter and discover how useful heat energy can be.

"You are very far beyond the curve on humanistic evolution."

Is this an insult or a compliment?

"Real scientists are seeing the insermountable problems with the postulate. Honest scientists who still want to believe in a naturalistic origins have landed on other planets. Its called panspermia. Spacemen from other worlds have populated the earth. LOL"

'Real' and 'Honest' scientists don't believe in evolution - so by inference, any scientist who believes in the TOE must be dishonest or not a real scientist. Nice to see that you've moved on from the straw men and started with the ad hominem attacks.

"When you shift the questions of origins to another planet then all sorts of science fiction can be postulated without the bright eye of science bringing up embarrassing facts that make evolution impossible."

I never shifted the question of origins to other planets - you did. In your previous statement. And even if life was transported to this world from another one, it still doesn't explain how it came to be in the first place (see abiogenesis).

"Dating is done by radiometric dating. Any where fron 12 -24 dates are spit out of this process. Which, if any of these wide ranging dates, are correct? They go to the non-existent geologic collumn. Then they find out what layer the fossil was found in. Then they pick the date which matches the time perion that part of the collumn was suposedly laid down. These dates of layers are wild ass guesses. Pure speculation using unverifiable assumptions. So they use wild ass guesses to justify guesses in radiometric dating. There is no solid reference for any of the billions and billions of years of dating."

Radiometric dating is a blanket term for several techniques of dating. Each one has various strengths and weaknesses. Could you please provide a reference to which dating technique you've seen that provides 12-24 widely-ranging dates?

"You might be able to help me though. I get confused."

Most of your post is proof of that.

"Was it cows that waded into salt marshes and turned into whales or was it whales that got beached that grew hoofs and became cows? LOL"

Neither - it would have been a primitive, land-based mammalian ancestor of the current whale.

"It brings back the old Marx brother line, "are you going to believe the story I'm telling you or your own two eyes. LOL"

I prefer to believe my eyes. As soon as I see a tag labeled "Made in Heaven by G_d" on a piece of DNA, I'll believe in ID.

Secondly - you seem to be under the impression that typing in 'LOL' creates compelling evidence to back up your claims. It doesn't - it merely shows that you have no evidence to put forth.
John
August 12, 2005   09:00 PM PDT
 
Binocular vision for depth perception. Two ears for directional hearing. Toes for standing and walking. Fingerprints for better grip. Fingernails for picking :). Etc. Etc. Etc. I'm not a scientist, but there's just no way that cells did all this on their own. All creatures on this planet were created by God. Exactly how and when, I don't know. If you want to believe otherwise, then you're certainly free to do so. But nothing will ever change *my* mind.
JM
August 12, 2005   10:20 PM PDT
 
>there's just no way that cells did
>all this on their own

Cells do not do it at all. Organisms do. Those traits which give even a slight advantage are preferentally selected for. How simple does the theory of evolution have to be stated before the Parade of Strawmen ends?
Name
August 14, 2005   02:06 PM PDT
 
"I suggest you contemplate the difference between NATURAL selection and ARTIFICIAL selection. If humans can have such an effect on plants and animals in the mere few thousand years we've been working with them, and you accept that as a fact, then why are you so opposed to the idea that the natural environment would also have an effect on plants and animals over hundreds of millions of years... ourselves included?"

I am not "opposed to the idea that the natural environment would also have an effect on plants and animals". I merely point out that in order for it to reach the current level of complexity it could not be the result of "Chaos", but must, just like "selctive breeding", be the result of"Intelligent Design".

Regards,

Neal
Name
August 14, 2005   03:09 PM PDT
 
Dang Joe, you get really sensitive when someone points out the flaws of your religious dogma.

"I have all their albums. Do people still say 'albums?'"

You obviously do! It appears as though trustingly bought into their "Whole Ten Yards"! Of course, the opposite of "Intelligent Design" is "Chaos". And those, like you, who believe in the almighty "Chaos" must do so with the religious fervor that you certainly demonstrate.

"And no one ever said that human beings spontaneously assembled out of a chemical mix, except those who enjoy putting up strawmen."

Heck, Joe, you "Chaotians" claim that the first cell was "spontaneously assembled out of a chemical mix". Compared to the complexity of a single living cell, all computers are mere child's play. If anyone is creating "strawmen", it is you and those adherents of the "goddess Chaos".

"I'll tell you what. You want to claim that life on Earth was designed? First produce solid evidence, unmistakable physical proof of a designer. Stop looking at the world and saying, "It's just too complicated -- it must have been planned." That is NOT SCIENCE. "

Joe, there is more "proof" of an "intelligent designer" then there is of the accidental creation and evolution directed by your "goddess Chaos". A created universe evolving by "intelligent design" was the generally accepted norm of the scientific community until the "Enlightenment" used Darwin's "Origin of Species" as a its "Gospel" to explain the creation of man without the moral baggage, such as the "soul" and "conscience", attendant to the existence of an "intelligent designer". Without an "inteeligent designer", then there are no "sel-evident truths", and you have the French Revolution instead of the American one.

Unfortunately, you "Chaotians" can no more PROVE your hypothesis that man is merely the result of random chaotic natural events, than you can PROVE that an "intelligent designer" does NOT exist. Of course, you being unable to PROVE your theory of "chaotic evolution" makes your supposed "science" merely another of the World's many religions, to be taken on "faith" by its adherents rather than scientific method. Of course, as PROVE of the existence of an "intelligent designer", I suggest you look into the eyes of a new born child and see if you can't something beyond the handiwork of your "gooddess Chaos".

Regards,

Neal
Name
August 14, 2005   03:35 PM PDT
 
"Cells do not do it at all. Organisms do. Those traits which give even a slight advantage are preferentally selected for. How simple does the theory of evolution have to be stated before the Parade of Strawmen ends?"

The basis of your "Chaotic Design Theory of Evolution" is Darwins concept of "natural selection" associated with the "survival of the fittest". If you take vision, for example, your ability to see requires the interaction of so many different physical components, from the brain through "light transmitters" through eye and the shape and placement of its lenses, that evolution based on "survival of the fittest" could never account for a chaotically evolved ability to see.

In order for all these inter-related components of sight to have evolved chaotically, without a design, would mean that they would have had to evolved in one massive evolutionary "leap forward" where some "blind" organism developed a complete integrated and functioning ocular system in one generation. Otherwise, none of these individual physical components required for sight would have benefitted an organism sufficiently so as to make more "fit" for "survival" than its sightless brothers.

Regards,

Neal
Neal Lang
August 14, 2005   03:59 PM PDT
 
"The Big bang is an evolutionary humanist postulate at how our universe was birthed."

Actually it was Georges Lemaitre (1894-1966), a Belgian mathematician and Catholic priest who developed the theory of the Big Bang.

When Lemaitre presented his "Big Bang" theory to a group of scientists in California in 1933, Albert Einstein, someone who believed the necessity ofa "First Mover" to explain the existence of the universe, was in attendance and stated: "This is the most beautiful and satisfactory explanation of creation to which I have ever listened.”

As with the evolution of plants and animals, the astro-physical universe could have only evolved by the input of an "intelligent designer".

See: 'A Day Without Yesterday': Georges Lemaitre & the Big Bang - by MARK MIDBON at: http://catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0022.html

Regards,

Neal
Neal Lang
August 14, 2005   04:45 PM PDT
 
"There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved." Charles Darwin, "Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection"

Hmmm! "There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers having been originally breathed by the Creator" - indeed!

Regards,

Neal
JM
August 14, 2005   07:59 PM PDT
 
Alright, Neal, I allowed you to babble on for several posts now, without your saying anything of interest or import. You persist on talking about chaos, calling a scientific theory a religion, and generally sounding like a raving nutjob. At no time have you proved that evolution by natural selection does not occur, nor have you offered a shred of proof to back your dogmatic insistence that humans were the result of somebody's delberate breeding program. The cry that "it's too complicated for us to understand" is still answered by "yet." When, as Psychic Ferret says, you find a strand of DNA marked, "Made by God," you let me know.
Name
August 14, 2005   08:12 PM PDT
 
"As soon as I see a tag labeled "Made in Heaven by G_d" on a piece of DNA, I'll believe in ID."

Psychic Ferret, that was hillarious!

...hillarious in a good way; I agree with what JM and you are saying.

I think the ID believers are on the "extreme" defensive because every couple of centuries, religious believers lose a few "feathers"; Earth was not 14 thousand old as it more or less says in the bible + The earth was not the center of ...well... our solar system+ God does not send disease to punish humans and so on...

Science is slowly eroding religious beliefs one by one.

More and more we see that , if God exists, then he is not very much involved in what is going on here, or he is very busy somewhere else, too busy to monitor every thing we do, or he simply does not exist ...

And all this would also mean that, us humans are not those exceptional superior beings, but just another more evolved animal.

JM
August 14, 2005   08:50 PM PDT
 
>Science is slowly eroding religious
>beliefs one by one.

No, it's not... and that's not what science is about, either. Science is a tool for understanding how things work. Religion and philosophy are tools for understanding why. Neither should be used to attack the other.
Psychic Ferret
August 14, 2005   09:36 PM PDT
 
The following is a quote from William Dembski, one of the chief proponents of ID - "Dismantling materialism is a good thing. Not only does intelligent design rid us of this ideology, which suffocates the human spirit, but, in my personal experience, I've found that it opens the path for people to come to Christ. Indeed, once materialism is no longer an option, Christianity again becomes an option. True, there are then also other options. But Christianity is more than able to hold its own once it is seen as a live option. The problem with materialism is that it rules out Christianity so completely that it is not even a live option. Thus, in its relation to Christianity, intelligent design should be viewed as a ground-clearing operation that gets rid of the intellectual rubbish that for generations has kept Christianity from receiving serious consideration."

http://www.designinference.com/documents/2005.02.Reply_to_Henry_Morris.htm

If one of the people at the forefront of the ID movement will, in moments of candor, admit that ID is nothing more than 'bait' to lure people into Christianity, how much faith does he truly have?

In his hypothesis, or in his religion?
Name
August 15, 2005   01:12 AM PDT
 
I'm not saying science should erode religious beliefs, but that is the unintented result we have anyway.

The more we learn about the world around us and how it works, the less religious explanations hold water.
The age of planet earth and the solar system were very hard for religious people to swallow once science came up with the right explanations.

Scientists ( well most of them anyway ) dind't want to explain those things to erode religious beliefs, it was not what motivated them, but it is still what happens.

If someday some scientists while working on a cure for cancer were ever to discover how life began 4 billion years ago, we could not accuse them of trying to destroy christianity, but that is still what it would be helping to do.

Every time science explains a mystery, that is one less thing that was done by the magic of God, like it or not.

Solar eclipses, volcanos, comets, all those things were believed to be manifestations of God, but now we know they are just natural phenmenom - no magic there, no God's hand.

I didn't mean to say one should destroy the other.

Curious minds are not out to get religion, but religion is still the inevitable casualty.
Neal Lang
August 15, 2005   11:04 AM PDT
 
"Alright, Neal, I allowed you to babble on for several posts now, without your saying anything of interest or import. You persist on talking about chaos, calling a scientific theory a religion, and generally sounding like a raving nutjob. "

Gee, the Classic Leftist ad hominem attack. I really expected more of you, Joe. Of course, trying to defend the indefensibles does allow for building your argument on facts, now does?

"At no time have you proved that evolution by natural selection does not occur, nor have you offered a shred of proof to back your dogmatic insistence that humans were the result of somebody's delberate breeding program."

Of course, neither you nor anyone else has been able PROVE that "natural selection" does occur other than minor adaptations to climate and environment. For instance, Joe, you haven't pointed a single scientically proven trans-specie mutation. Of course, you can't PROVE that "Intellectigent Design" didn't account for the creation of man, as you have no PROVE - none, zippo - that man isn't the result of "Intelligent Design".

"The cry that 'it's too complicated for us to understand' is still answered by 'yet'."

Actually, Joe, the "cry" is - "too complicated" to be created by "Chaos". With is your unproven hypothesis, which you take solely on faith - making "Chaos" your religion.

"hen, as Psychic Ferret says, you find a strand of DNA marked, 'Made by God,' you let me know."

And when you find a strand of DNA marked, "Created by Chacos", please let me know!

Regards,

Neal
Psychic Ferret
August 15, 2005   11:33 AM PDT
 
And when you find a strand of DNA marked, "Created by Chacos", please let me know!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudogene

You have been duly informed.
Neal J. Lang
August 15, 2005   12:20 PM PDT
 
Francis Collins, Director of the U.S. Human Genome Project, commented that, "We have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God." White House news conference, June 26, 2000.
Russell E. Rierson
August 15, 2005   01:09 PM PDT
 
Logical Proof of Intelligent Design:

The universe is defined as the totality of all that exists.

Within the universe, cause precedes effect.

If cause, then effect:

If A then B

A

Therefore B

The purpose of "cause" is to create an effect.

Cause and effect are mutually dependent. If there is no effect, then there is no cause:

If not B then not A,

not B

therefore not A

The universe creates its own purpose. If it did not create its own purpose, it would be totally chaotic, or, it would be totally deterministic. We observe the universe as a system with consistent laws, therefore, it is not totally chaotic.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle explains that both the position and momentum of a particle, cannot be determined precisely, and this uncertainty is an intrinsic property of the universe, so the universe cannot be totally deterministic.

Therefore, the universe creates its own purpose.

Purpose implies intent, intent implies mind, mind implies intelligence.

If the universe is an effect, and the cause of the effect is within the universe, then the universe creates itself.

Therefore:

The universe is an intelligent mind.

Russell E. Rierson
analog57@yahoo.com
Psychic Ferret
August 15, 2005   03:45 PM PDT
 
To Neal J. Lang,

Last week, Francis Collins, the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute, and Craig Venter, the CEO of Celera Genomics, joined President Clinton at a press conference to announce their completion of the first map of the human genome. "Today, June 26, in the year 2000, marks an historic point in the 100,000-year record of humanity," declared Venter. "Our species can read the chemical letters of its genetic code." Collins was equally effusive: "Today, we celebrate the revelation of the first draft of the human book of life. … We have caught the first glimpse of our own instruction book, previously known only to God."

Hmmm - it seems that his coworker must have misspoke himself when he stated that we are marking an historic event in the 100,000 year record of humanity. After all, the Earth is only 6,000 years old - right, Neal?

Or perhaps it was when Collins pulled G_d's instruction manual from his back pocket to compare handwriting styles that he knew that ID was undisputable fact!

You should really consider learning more about the richness of the English language, including the use what educated people like to call 'figures of speech'.
Psychic Ferret
August 15, 2005   04:01 PM PDT
 
To Russell E. Rierson,

"The purpose of 'cause' is to create an effect."

The statement that you are making here is more philosophical than scientific. You are assigning purpose where none need exist. You are stating that all cause is purposeful.

What, for example, is the purpose of the cause that creates an earthquake or a hurricane?

Is G_d or Gaia angry at the inhabitants of the Earth and wishes to kill some of them?

Or do we just not understand the greater plan?
JM
August 15, 2005   06:46 PM PDT
 
>Classic Leftist

Now THAT'S hilarious.

>neither you nor anyone else has
>been able PROVE that "natural
>selection" does occur

Only if you ignore the evidence.

>a single scientically proven trans-
>specie mutation

Well, thanks for letting me know you know nothing at all about genetics. Clue: it doesn't work like that. Creatures don't suddenly BECOME different creatures. It takes TIME for a species to change, and the changes are unbelievably slow and gradual. Visit a museum sometime; I'm sure they have displays that can illustrate what I'm talking about. I suggest looking into the evolution of the modern horse, for instance.

>you can't PROVE
>that "Intellectigent Design" didn't
>account for the creation of man

It is, of course, impossible to prove a negative. Logic, however, dictates that the simplest explanation that fits the facts is probably the correct explanation. Postulating the existence of powerful alien or divine beings merely to avoid the most logical explanation makes no sense. There is ample proof that species can alter in response to changing environmental conditions, whether naturally or artificially imposed. (Note: "environmental conditions" doesn't just mean the weather; it can mean "the longer the ears, the easier for wolves to catch.") When you find proof that some species was designed (and not by humans), you just let me know.
JM
August 15, 2005   06:50 PM PDT
 
>The universe creates its own
>purpose.

Your opening statement makes an unwarranted, unprovable assumption. Your conclusion therefore is faulty, based on circular logic; in effect: "The universe is intelligent because the universe is intelligent."
Neal Lang
August 16, 2005   01:24 PM PDT
 
"After all, the Earth is only 6,000 years old - right, Neal?"

Gee, Ferret, where did you ever get that idea?

So, "God" is merely a "figure of speech". I suppose you think that Mr. Collins was actually referring to your almighty "Chaos".
Neal Lang
August 16, 2005   03:43 PM PDT
 
"Now THAT'S hilarious."

I am glad you enjoyed it, Joe.

"Only if you ignore the evidence."

What evidence is that?

"Well, thanks for letting me know you know nothing at all about genetics. Clue: it doesn't work like that. Creatures don't suddenly BECOME different creatures. It takes TIME for a species to change, and the changes are unbelievably slow and gradual."

Really, "Creatures don't suddenly BECOME different creatures", eh! If that is the case, than just how do you explain the "Cambrian explosion" (a.k.a. biology's Big Bang) of 550 million years ago, when there was a sudden profusion of complex life-forms jelly fish, trilobites, mollusks for which there are no discernible ancestors. The fossil record does not even remotely confirm gradual evolution, as Darwin and his disciples claim. Harvard biologist Stephen Jay Gould calls this the great "trade secret" of modern paleontology. But I suppose you know better than Gould. Richard Dawkins, a staunch Darwinist, has no explanation for this sudden riot of new life forms: "It is as though they were just planted there, without any evolutionary history." The same is true of flowering plants, which appeared suddenly 120 million years ago. Maybe you should contact Gould and Dawkins and tell them of your of findings. Perhaps they will even help you to get your earth-shattering discovery published.

"Visit a museum sometime; I'm sure they have displays that can illustrate what I'm talking about. I suggest looking into the evolution of the modern horse, for instance."

Ah, Joe, you flawlessly demonstrate your superior "genetic acumen" with the infamous "evolution of the modern horse" display - a.k.a. "Horse Feathers".

"However, are these models based on factual information?"

"When we investigate this model carefully, we come upon several problems that negate the possibility that we have here a genuine series of evolved horses. We discover that the evolutionists have merely selected a variety of different size animals, arranged them from small to large, and then called it all 'a horse series'."

"As the biologist Heribert-Nilsson said, ‘The family tree of the horse is beautiful and continuous only in the textbooks’, and the famous paleontologist Niles Eldredge called the textbook picture ‘lamentable and ‘a classical case of paleontologic museology'. As shown in a detailed thesis by Walter Barnhart, the horse ‘series’ is an interpretation of the data. He documents how different pictures of horse evolution were drawn by different evolutionists from the same data, as the concept of evolution itself ‘evolved’.

"By the 1920's it was becoming clear that the evolution of the horse was much more complicated than Marsh presented in his model." (See: "The Evolution of the Horse" at: http://www.creationevolution.net/evolution_of_the_horse.htm)

As you can see, Joe, your model of the "Evolution of the Horse" found in textbooks and museums is much more "hoaks" than it is science. But, anyway, thanks for straightening me out on the "weird science" of genetics.

"It is, of course, impossible to prove a negative."

Exactly, Joe! "At no time have you proved that evolution by natural selection does not occur..... " Hmmm!

"Logic, however, dictates that the simplest explanation that fits the facts is probably the correct explanation."

Actually, Joe, it was Ockham's Razor that dictates "Keep it simple, stupid" or "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate", which translates as "entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily." Of course, finding the "correct explanation" assumes that one is working with a complete and correct "set of facts" and not merely "Horse Feathers". To accept that "Chaos" and not "design" is correct explanation for the "Orgin of Species" than we must at least find some more "facts" as to why the "Cambrian explosion" occurred absent the "documentation" of the requisite "fossil record", because the high priests of "Chaotic Evolution", Gould and Dawkins, seem to be totally clueless when asked for an explanation. BTW, William of Ockham was a fourteenth century monk, philosopher, and theologian who put forth his "Razor" in order to help settle thorny theological issues. However, it does work in science, but only if you are willing to look at ALL of the "FACTS".

"Postulating the existence of powerful alien or divine beings merely to avoid the most logical explanation makes no sense."

At the same time postulating how the "goddess Chaos" may have brought forth our "ordered universe", without even a modicum of proof, is even more nonsensical.

"There is ample proof that species can alter in response to changing environmental conditions, whether naturally or artificially imposed."

But there is no "proof" that one specie ever "evolved" into another. Where is fossil record of such alterations? It is a major genetic leap, without the still missing link, from homo erectus to homo sapien. It is a much the grander leap, Joe, between the "Kingdoms" Bacteria and Animalia. However, if we are all descended, "helter-skelter", from the same primordial ooze, than you "Chaotic Evolutionists" must accept this on "religious-like" faith, as there are no discernable "facts" in the fossil record supporting your hypothesis as to the "Origin of Species".

"(Note: 'environmental conditions' doesn't just mean the weather; it can mean 'the longer the ears, the easier for wolves to catch.')"

Really? Well you could have sure fooled me. But, Joe, changing ear size is an adaptation that might make one member of a specie more adaptable to its environment than another. It cannot explain the introduction of entirely new species, anymore than breeding a dog for curly coat rather than straight makes it a "new" specie. BTW, a smaller ear would probably make a prey animal less survivable in a "wolf country" environment than more so. The purpose of a large ear is to better hear the approach of a predator so the prey may flee before the wolf gets close enough to bite its ear! Big ear or small, if the wolf is close enough to snatch them ones continued survival is completely problematical.

"When you find proof that some species was designed (and not by humans), you just let me know."

And when you find a "real" model of the "Evolution of the Horse" kindly point same out to me. BTW, exactly what "specie" was designed by man?

Regards,

Neal
Russell E. Rierson
August 16, 2005   03:50 PM PDT
 
Cause and effect are mutually dependent, they form a closed loop. Since they are mutually dependent, one cannot exist without the other. Cause and effect are an intrinsic function of the universe.
Neal Lang
August 16, 2005   08:22 PM PDT
 
"What, for example, is the purpose of the cause that creates an earthquake or a hurricane?"

Mind if I take a crack at it, Ferret?

First, the "earthquake" is the "effect", for which the "tension" of the Earth's tectonic plates is the "cause". This is a "natural" and not a "supernatural" cause, unless we attribute the "natural laws" to God.

This demonstrates Newtons third law of motion, interpreted by Elert- "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." The tectonic plate tension is a result of the "effect" which are "caused" by other "natural laws" identified by Newton including inertia, dynamics and gravity.

Simularly, "hurricaines" are the "effect" which the rapid rise of warm air over warm tropical waters is the "cause". The resultant cyclonic action and cooling and condensation of the warm moist water surface air generates the "energy" of the "hurricaine".

Actually, both are the natural "effects" which result from the natural "causes", and are part of the "orderly rhythm" of the universe. Of course, while they may be classified as "disasters", both "effects" provide benefits to the Earth and mankind. If the Earth didn't periodically relieve its plate tension energy through earthquakes, eventually this tension energy would build until its release might actually destroy the planet and end all life. Likewise the energy released by hurricaines in the form of torrential rain replenish surface water resources and aquifers that are needed in order for life to survive the annual "dry seasons" experienced throughout the tropics.

Both point to the existence of an "ordered universe" rather than a "Chaotic" one, IMMHO.

Regards,

Neal
Peter Nyikos
August 16, 2005   08:26 PM PDT
 
In the original post, Joe Mariani (aka Cavalier X) confuses two issues: one, the evolution of large groups of
organisms (say, all vertebrates) by common descent from a common ancestor; and two, the Darwinian theory of how this happens. It is the latter, not the former, that ID theory has a bone to pick with.

Mariani rightly praises all the scientific progress that has resulted from gathering evidence for evolution having taken place on a grand scale, with our picture of the resulting "tree of life" getting clearer and clearer with each passing year.

But what scientific progress can he point to by way of adhering to Darwin's theory of natural selection? All we have seems only to advance our understanding of what creationists call microevolution, and have no problem with.

As an explanation for common descent, natural selection is basically philosophical, not scientific. The main alternative to it is not creation of Homo sapiens ex nihilo, as Mariani seems to claim towards the end of his essay, but divinely guided evolution as beautifully described by Loren Eiseley in his great book, The
Immense Journey:

``Perhaps there also, among rotting fish heads and blue,
night-burning bog lights, moved the eternal mystery,
the careful finger of God. The increase was not much.
It was two bubbles, two thin-walled little balloons at the
end of the Snout's small brain. The cerebral hemispheres
had appeared.''
Psychic Ferret
August 16, 2005   08:40 PM PDT
 
Russell and Neal,

"Cause and effect are mutually dependent, they form a closed loop. Since they are mutually dependent, one cannot exist without the other. Cause and effect are an intrinsic function of the universe." - Which is a true statement. Your earlier statement was not. You put forth the proposal that cause creates or implies purpose, which it does not.

The earlier statement was: "The purpose of 'cause' is to create an effect."

The definition of Purpose is "deliberately thought-through goal-directedness" (Pulled from WikiPedia).

The arguments that Neal gave are good, well-described pieces that show an understanding of modern geological and meteorological phenomenon (applause). However, to fit into the situation described earlier by Russell, the Earth would have to make a conscious decision to cause an earthquake to relieve tectonic pressure or cause a hurricane to replenish certain water tables. No such evidence exists that shows the Earth is making such a conscious decision. That type of reasoning is more akin to earlier cultures praying to the gods for rain and a good harvest.

Am I making myself clear on this point?
Psychic Ferret
August 16, 2005   08:52 PM PDT
 
"'After all, the Earth is only 6,000 years old - right, Neal?'

Gee, Ferret, where did you ever get that idea?"

That seems to be the standard Creationist logic - run through Biblical genealogies and you arrive at a figure between 6 and 10 thousand years.

"So, 'God' is merely a 'figure of speech'. I suppose you think that Mr. Collins was actually referring to your almighty 'Chaos'."

No, G_d is a single word and cannot therefore be a figure of speech. I was referring to the phrases "the human book of life" and "our own instruction book". Or did you truly believe that Collins had a copy of G_d's instruction manual?
JM
August 16, 2005   10:21 PM PDT
 
>how do you explain
>the "Cambrian explosion" (a.k.a.
>biology's Big Bang) of 550 million
>years ago

You think that happened in a day or so, do you?

>no discernible ancestors

Soft-bodied creatures leave few remains. Logic, you know.

>the infamous "evolution of the
>modern horse"

That's an excellent refutation to Dr. Hunt's outline of horse evolution, which you can enjoy here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html
No, really, it is.

>"By the 1920's it was becoming
>clear that the evolution of the
>horse was much more
>complicated than Marsh presented
>in his model."

So, you admit there IS such a thing as evolution, then. Thanks for playing.

>Where is fossil record of such
>alterations?

Fossils don't usually show genotypes, only phenotypes. But you keep plugging away at that, if you like.

>without the still missing link

Every time a fossil is discovered that bridges a gap, anti-scientists claim that there are now TWO gaps to fill -- one on each side of the new fossil. Funny as that game is, it's getting kind of stale.

>"Chaotic Evolutionists"

As opposed to what, "Dogmatic Neo-Luddites?"

>Well you could have sure fooled
>me.

You don't need my help in the "fooling Neal" department. You've got yourself convinced that science does not work. Congratulations!

Personally, I'm moving on from this thread. I have no wish to keep endlessly repeating the post you're commenting on just because you don't understand or disagree with it.
Neal J. Lang
August 17, 2005   09:23 AM PDT
 
"That seems to be the standard Creationist logic - run through Biblical genealogies and you arrive at a figure between 6 and 10 thousand years."

First, Ferret, you assume that I am a biblical literalist and 6-day creationist. You know what happens when you assume. Second, I believe that the biblical geneology merely dates back to Adam. Some people assume that the first couple of chapters of Genesis are a chronographic revelation of the science of "Terra Forming". Again, you know what happens when you assume. The Bible should never be held up to more (or less) than it is. It was never intended to be an astrophysical, geological, nor biological textbook. Instead it has always been our introduction to our God, so that man may better know, love, and serve Him in this World (which God created through methods He has yet to totally reveal to us). Anyone who makes it anymore than that (say a history book, for example) is headed for problems, IMMHO.

"No, G_d is a single word and cannot therefore be a figure of speech. I was referring to the phrases "the human book of life" and "our own instruction book". Or did you truly believe that Collins had a copy of G_d's instruction manual?"

Judging from his speech, Francis Collins seemed to think that he did. Of course, the real story uncovered by the Human Genome Project is the exquisite "program" that defines each individual human being. Certainly programming indicates a "planned design", and planning indicates intelligence. Mr. Collins was so impressed with this discovery he choose to refer to it as God's "Instruction Manual on Human Life". A more elegeant recognition of "Intelligent Design" I could not imagine.

BTW, Ferret, a single word, such as "God" can be used as a "figure of speech". For instance as a metaphor - "the substitution of a word for a word whose meaning is close to the original word". In Collins' case, if he were a "Chaotic Evolutionist" he might substitute the word "God" for his "goddess of Chaos" - believing the two being close or the same.

Regards,

Neal
Neal J. Lang
August 17, 2005   10:59 AM PDT
 
"You think that happened in a day or so, do you?"

No, do you? But in relation to the geological history of our planet, the emergence of the variety of new "Cambrian explosion" life forms occurred in a relatively short span.

"Soft-bodied creatures leave few remains. Logic, you know."

Of course, you are obviously guilty of an "illogical conclusion, based on insufficient data". The new life forms of the "Cambrian explosion" were mostly "soft-bodied creatures". However, we know of new "soft-bodied creatures" ONLY because of the "fossile record" they left behind. Missing is the "fossil record" of any preceding life forms if required "theory of evolution" were correct. Even Darwin "assumed" such as "fossil record" must exist. This is the "trade secret" of modern paleontology according "Chaotic Evolution" guru, Stephen Jay Gould.

That's an excellent refutation to Dr. Hunt's outline of horse evolution, which you can enjoy here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html
No, really, it is.

Okay! From your cited Website:

"When asked to provide evidence of long-term evolution, most scientists turn to the fossil record. Within this context, fossil horses are among the most frequently cited examples of evolution. The prominent Finnish paleontologist Bjorn Kurten wrote: 'One's mind inevitably turns to that inexhaustible textbook example, the horse sequence. This has been cited -- incorrectly more often than not -- as evidence for practically every evolutionary principle that has ever been coined.' "

I rest my case. The mythological "Horse Evolution Model" used to teach Darwinian Evolution is a "hoax". About the only thing your reference cite does is refute a literal Genesis 6-day creation model. As a proponent of "Intelligent Design", I say "So what's new?" So much for your "evolutionary silver bullet".


"So, you admit there IS such a thing as evolution, then. Thanks for playing."

Actually, Joe, I never rejected evolution as a possible mechanism of biological adapatation. I believe I said as much in my 2nd post on this thread, to wit:

"In fact each new discovery in micro-biology seems to confirm the pre-Darwinian science that evolution, like "selective breeding" was based on an orderly, programmed design."

My position has always been that evolution can and does occur. However, this evolution is not induced by your "goddess of Chaos", but instead it follows a program directed by "Intelligent Design".

"Fossils don't usually show genotypes, only phenotypes. But you keep plugging away at that, if you like.

So you admit there exists no "proof" of inter-species transformations - well then: "Thanks for playing!"

A shift from one "species" to another is no mere "genotypic" change, Joe. Indeed such a shift at a minimum must include the physical attributes of both species in a single specimum. Without a "fossil record" of such "evolutionary changes", Joe, your "science" is really an "act of faith". More theology than biology.

Every time a fossil is discovered that bridges a gap, anti-scientists claim that there are now TWO gaps to fill -- one on each side of the new fossil. Funny as that game is, it's getting kind of stale.

As everyday scientists seem to making my case for me as the dogma of Darwinism and the religion of "Chaos" appear to be refuted, I can hardly be accused of being "anti-scientists". The fact is must of your so-called "missing links" have been proven to be hoaxes, just like your "Horse Evolution Model".

"As opposed to what, 'Dogmatic Neo-Luddites?'"

You are the dogmatic one, Joe. You are the one who refuses to open up the discussion on "Origins" to any but the acolytes of the "prophet" Darwin. Of course, we both know why! Your "Chaotic Evolution" is a "House of Cards". If you subject to intense scrutiny it will crumble, as it already is. Today, you "Chaotic Evolutionists" are the real "Luddites".

You don't need my help in the "fooling Neal" department. You've got yourself convinced that science does not work. Congratulations!

Come on, Joe, I was merely answering your "gratuitous condescension" with a bit of my own. And whatever gave you the impression that I believed "that science does not work". Au contraire, Mon Ami! Why on Earth would reject science, when everyday it produces more proof of the soundness of my reasoning. As for being "fooled", I believe it was you who introduced the infamous "Horse Evolution Model".

"Personally, I'm moving on from this thread. I have no wish to keep endlessly repeating the post you're commenting on just because you don't understand or disagree with it."

Ah! Joe, do I detect "your tail between your legs"? Oops! Please pardon my Darwinian "hyperbole"!

Regards,

Neal
Russell E. Rierson
August 17, 2005   11:08 AM PDT
 
If a system is totally chaotic or totally deterministic, it needs no purpose for itself.

The universe is not totally chaotic nor totally deterministic. It serves its own purpose.

Purpose implies mind, mind implies intelligence.

The universe [the totality of all that exists] is an intelligent mind.
Neal J. Lang
August 17, 2005   11:33 AM PDT
 
"The arguments that Neal gave are good, well-described pieces that show an understanding of modern geological and meteorological phenomenon (applause)."

Gee, thanks!

"However, to fit into the situation described earlier by Russell, the Earth would have to make a conscious decision to cause an earthquake to relieve tectonic pressure or cause a hurricane to replenish certain water tables."

No, Ferret, the Earth's systems is merely guided by the "laws of nature and Nature's God".

"No such evidence exists that shows the Earth is making such a conscious decision."

Never said it was. It is merely following the "script" of the "physical laws" that highlight and "Intelligent Design". This "script" speaks of an "ordered universe as opposed to a "chaotic" one.

"That type of reasoning is more akin to earlier cultures praying to the gods for rain and a good harvest."

No, Ferret, actually it "is more akin to earlier (and current) cultures praying" to the "goddess, Earth" for "rain and a good harvest". Worshipping the "Earth" does not make much sense as the Earth is obviously the "creation" and not the Creator.

Regards,

Neal

Yofi
August 17, 2005   02:27 PM PDT
 
It's interesting to read all these comments by some intelligent people (much more than I will ever be). But the bottom line is that believing in God is done by faith. You can't explain Him or what He has done. None of us will ever convince the other of His existence by our own human arguments. I guess if you are very smart, like all you are, you like to do this back and forth argument, thinking you might convince someone. I don't think it's possible. We are human, He is God. We can't explain Him, only choose to believe in Him. I challenge any of you who are "athiests," to sincerely ask God to show you He is real. I believe He will.

Like some philosopher once said, and I paraphrase, "If there is no God, and you are right, it won't matter to me, but if I am right, and there is a God, you are all in trouble."

I do enjoy reading all of this, even though some of it is beyond my intellectual capability. I like this site. It's one of my favorites.
Neal Lang
August 21, 2005   06:20 PM PDT
 
"Like some philosopher once said, and I paraphrase, 'If there is no God, and you are right, it won't matter to me, but if I am right, and there is a God, you are all in trouble'."


Blaise Pascal, French philosopher, scientist, mathematician and probability theorist of the 17th Century. The logic analysis you poised is known as Pascal's Wager which is stated:

"If you erroneously believe in God, you lose nothing (assuming that death is the absolute end), whereas if you correctly believe in God, you gain everything (eternal bliss). But if you correctly disbelieve in God, you gain nothing (death ends all), whereas if you erroneously disbelieve in God, you lose everything (eternal damnation)."

Regards,

Neal
Yofi
August 22, 2005   02:36 PM PDT
 
Thanks, Neal. Like I said, I don't claim to be as smart as all of you, just don't understand arguing about it all!

Rabbi Shaul (Paul) said that the things of God are foolishness to those who don't believe.
Neal J. Lang
August 23, 2005   02:50 PM PDT
 
Hi, Yofi,

That quote is from: Isaiah 19:13 Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote, 14 Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous; And the wisdom of their wise men will perish, And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed."

This was paraphrased by St. Paul (Saul) at: "1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, 'I WILL DESTROY THE WIDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.' 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."

Regards,

Neal

Yofi
August 24, 2005   01:10 PM PDT
 
Neal,

And your point is?
Yofi
August 24, 2005   01:15 PM PDT
 
I was actually quoting from verse 18 of I Corinthians chapter 1, which you didn't include here: "The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to use who are being saved, it is the power of God."

I am still not sure what your point is.
Neal J. Lang
August 30, 2005   12:03 PM PDT
 
"Rabbi Shaul (Paul) said that the things of God are foolishness to those who don't believe."

"I am still not sure what your point is."

I was merely pointing out that the Rabbi Saul (Paul's) quotation in First Corinthians had it roots in the Old Testament, as does most of the teachings in St. Paul's Epistles.
Yofi
August 30, 2005   04:58 PM PDT
 
As does a lot of the New Testament. Christianity has its roots in the Old Testament. Would that the Church would realize that.
Neal J. Lang
September 20, 2005   02:54 PM PDT
 
"As does a lot of the New Testament. Christianity has its roots in the Old Testament. Would that the Church would realize that."

I believe most Christians do, else why bother including the Books of the Old Testament in Christian Bible? In fact, the Person from Whom Christianity takes its name stated:

Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill."

jess
September 30, 2005   05:52 AM PDT
 
its crap
 

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