Entry: Faith-Based Science 1: Anthropogenic Global Warming Sunday, June 18, 2006



Anthropogenic global warming is still the favorite myth of the hip Liberal crowd these days, despite holes in AGW theory through which one could drive an SUV. Because studies have shown a one-degree rise in the global mean temperature over the last 150 years, the Left feels justified in demanding that our (meaning primarily American) technology and industry be virtually decimated. A particularly warm or cool year can alter the mean out of proportion. Such a hot spike occurred in 1997, for instance, and all successive years have all been cooler. Yet we rarely hear the global warming alarmists mention this or other facts that might dampen the hysteria they need to push their agenda.

The one-degree rise in global mean temperature is not only within the normal statistical variation for temperatures, but is also far from abnormal. The only constant upon which we can depend is change. More dramatic temperature changes -- in both directions -- can be seen in estimated historical temperature readings going back over 600 million years. The Earth, in fact, is only just emerging from a depression in global mean temperature known as the Little Ice Age. Temperatures began to fall around the world in the 15th century, and began to rise again in the middle of the 19th. Those who insist that a one-degree increase in global temperature since then is either unprecedented or cause for panic are indulging in bad science to "prove" a viewpoint they've already decided must be true.

Alarmists like former Vice President Al Gore point to high carbon dioxide levels as "proof" that the Earth is doomed. (Plants, which are flourishing on the increased CO2, might disagree.) However, as Carleton University paleoclimatologist Professor Tim Patterson testified before Canada's Commons Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development, CO2 data alone does not indicate an emergency. "There is no meaningful correlation between CO2 levels and Earth's temperature over this [geologic] time frame. In fact, when CO2 levels were over ten times higher than they are now, about 450 million years ago, the planet was in the depths of the absolute coldest period in the last half billion years." Temperature and CO2 levels for the past 400,000 years shown side by side indicate that increases in global mean temperature actually precede a corresponding rise in the CO2 level. In other words, we've most likely already experienced the temperature increase to which the current CO2 level increase is related.

Carbon dioxide is far from being the only determining factor in the global temperature. Those who consider only CO2 levels when discussing climate change completely ignore the effects of sulfur dioxide and aerosols (both of which have a cooling effect on the climate), water vapor, methane, land usage, albedo (the amount of sunlight reflected back into space) and dozens of other factors whose impact on global temperature is still not completely understood, like solar output.

According to Sami Solanki, the director of the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research, "The sun is in a changed state. It is brighter than it was a few hundred years ago and this brightening started relatively recently -- in the last 100 to 150 years." This brightening just happens to correspond to the temperature rise that marked the ending of the Little Ice Age. Other studies indicate that solar radiation has increased by .05 percent per decade at least since the late 1970's. "This trend is important because, if sustained over many decades, it could cause significant climate change," said Richard Willson, a Columbia University researcher affiliated with NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies. Since the satellite technology used to monitor the Sun's radiation has only been available since the late 1970's, we cannot yet determine the time frame of the increased radiation. Mukul Sharma, Assistant Professor of Earth Sciences at Dartmouth, has linked the 100,000-year global warming/cooling cycle to a similar cycle in the Sun's magnetic field. In other words, not enough research has been done to support the conclusions that have been declared hard, cold fact by the AGW alarmists. How can a responsible person simply ignore the Sun's effect on the Earth's global temperature, especially when Mars, Saturn's moon Triton and even Pluto have shown signs of recent global warming?

We are told that there is a "consensus among scientists" that humans are responsible for the coming destruction. The problem is that most of those "scientists" are not climate change cause experts, but climate change impact experts. In other words, they study the effects of climate change, not its cause -- and climate change research brings in big money these days. Science is not a democratic endeavor in which one can vote on the facts. If it were, the Earth would actually have been flat during the Middle Ages.

The mainstream media does little to report the truth of the matter. For example,
Time magazine recently ran a cover article warning readers to "Be Worried, Be Very Worried" about global warming. The related articles are nothing more than the worst sort of fear-mongering hysteria, showcasing assumptions as facts, hysterics as experts and accusations as research. "The climate is crashing, and global warming is to blame... Never mind what you've heard about global warming as a slow-motion emergency that would take decades to play out. Suddenly and unexpectedly, the crisis is upon us." At no point, for instance, does the magazine interview or even mention the 17,800 scientists who signed the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine's rejection of the claims made by AGW hysterics. That's what passes for journalism today in what was once a reputable magazine.

Whether a one-degree increase in temperature over a 150-year period coinciding with increased solar output is even significant, or indicative of future trends, should be open for debate. Instead, proponents of the "faith-based science" of anthropogenic global warming have effectively closed the case even as research uncovers new, often conflicting information. We know from the available data that the Earth's temperature has risen and fallen on its own since long before humans existed to interfere. Even if we are contributing to the current cycle, how do the alarmists propose we "freeze" global warming, so to speak? Even if global warming were entirely due to human influence (which it's demonstrably not) how do they propose we deal with it -- kill off 90% of the human species and retreat to the caves? How would that help stop the eventual, inevitable, entirely natural changes in the Earth's climate?

Global warming hysteria is merely anti-Western, anti-capitalist political activism masquerading as science. The aim of its proponents, aside from the gullible college crowd that might actually swallow such unproven conclusions uncritically, is to use fear to take power. Let's not be foolish enough to destroy ourselves without a thorough examination of their claims.

See Faith-Based Science 2: Attacking Evolution

   31 comments

Dominic
June 19, 2006   12:13 PM PDT
 
Oh dear, Political ear bashing at its worst. America is unique as it contributes a massive proportion of the world's C02 emissions, it therefore would have the most to lose if reductions in the use of fossil fuel were implemented.

In the UK the leader of the right-wing party has erected a wind turbine on his roof and amongst other things delcared climate change as the biggest challenge facing human civilisation. Now if this was some left-wing plot, surely he would be the last to subscribe to it. He says this becuase there is in fact a scientific concensus, and it is not a partisan issue.

I really hope America catches up with the world, but I fear that many Americans aren't able to hear past the skin of the bubble they're floating in. Wake up and smell the carbon.
JM
June 19, 2006   12:27 PM PDT
 
Hey, thanks for proving my point!
Dominic
June 19, 2006   04:46 PM PDT
 
hmm, not quite sure how that proves your point. If you're suggesting that the right-wing politician is undertaking all things Green as a PR stunt then you are right in many respects. So why would he do this? Because the majority of people realise (through scientific concensus) that anthrogenic climate change is real and he is responding to peoples' feeling that action needs to be taken.

Incase you're pondering my political stance, I'm not a left-wing liberal.

I'm sure even the most fervant Global Warming denier would put up more of a debate than just 'thanks for proving my point'.

JM
June 19, 2006   04:54 PM PDT
 
>right-wing politician is undertaking
>all things Green

That's why people need to be warned, before politicians wreck our economy over a lie.

>scientific concensus

No such thing, and facts are not something upon which one can vote.

>anthrogenic climate change is real

Didn't even bother to read the post, did ya?

>Incase you're pondering my
>political stance

Not really.
Dominic
June 19, 2006   06:36 PM PDT
 
Oh deary deary me.

Okay, let me get specific.

The Oregon petition was conducted in 1998. That was 8 years ago, and you are correct that then there was no consensus on climate change then (not even going into the fact that most on the list are not climate scientists but infact anyone with a Bsc)

A statement from the National Acadamies was swiftly released:
http://144.16.65.194/hpg/envis/doc97html/globalssi422.html

However we are 8 years on, and so is science.

you mention a few scientists, one in particular, Tim Patterson. He has been involved with The Tech Central Station Science Foundation which received $95,000 from ExxonMobil for "Climate Change Support" in 2003.

Now, whatever his expertise, it does mean that it's difficult for him to be impartial or unbias - don't you think?

Oh and incase you wonder why being funded by Exxonmobil is a problem then you can read here. (it's very interesting reading!

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/documents/3860_GlobalClimateSciencePlanMemo.pdf

Oh - and a choice quote is this:
The company would recruit and train new scientists who lack a "history of visibility in the climate debate" and develop materials depicting supporters of action to cut greenhouse gas emissions as "out of touch with reality." (and Tim Patterson falls into this category)

I'm sure by this stage you have put your hands over your ears and are shouting la-la-la-la-la-la.

I could carry on, but maybe you could for some research for yourself. I always like to check my sources...
JM
June 19, 2006   06:48 PM PDT
 
I will not regurgitate the entire post in the comments section.

>The Oregon petition was conducted in 1998"

There was no concensus then or now. New evidence is discovered all the time that the Sun drives climate change. You choose to ignore it because it conflicts with your faith-based conclusion.

>whatever his expertise, it does
>mean that it's difficult for him to
>be impartial or unbias

In that case, let's throw out any statement made by any scientist who recieves any grant money with which to study climate change... deal?

>www.environmentaldefense.org

Gee, I wonder whether they're impartial and unbiased? OK, actually, I don't wonder.

>I could carry on

...but without anything of substance to say, what's the point?
Ellie
June 19, 2006   06:56 PM PDT
 
Typical. The stupid Lib can't refute Patterson's conclusions, so he attacks him personally. What a crock.
Dominic
June 19, 2006   07:02 PM PDT
 
Ahh! - you've completely contradicted yourself, please be aware of the logic of your arguments!

You see, American scientists who are conducting climate change research, especially the EPA, who as you might know had a document censored by the white house (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3006448.stm)
would be more likely to have their funded extended if they found results that contradicted climate change than is they found results supporting it.

Suprisingly enough, they found evidence supporting it, and they were censored. They're not really getting the right results if they're worried about their funding are they??

Faith isn't a factor in my stance. But if I was to consider what faith I had in supporting climate change, would you be willing to challenge your faith of constant denial?

My accusation of Tim Patterson being biased was rebutted by your accusation of all other scientists being biased, so at least you don't deny the influence of big business has on the 'science' community. Therefore who would you trust? Scientists fighting for more funding to carry out work they are passionate about, or people being paid by oil companies to carry out spin?

Dominic
June 19, 2006   07:41 PM PDT
 
Hi Ellie,

Thanks for joining the debate.

It's not about refuting Tim Patterson's conclusions just because I don't like them. It's about trying to see if there is any influence on the direction of his arguments. I am COMPLETELY open to you finding influence behind the opinons of most of the scientific bodies in the US that have declared the presence of Anthrogenic Climate Change. I am not ideaological, this is not about politics, however in America is seems to be.

Gore - I don't care about him, in fact I think may have done as much bad as good by his film, due to the immediate politiciastion of everything in the US

In America, the left and the right are at each other's throats, ideologies flying everywhere. Everyone is blinkered, left and right. It stifles debate because people are so stuck in their ideologies they will not see the truth (the left and the right)

If the majority of scientists thought that Anthogenic climate change did not exist, then I would not. To me (and it seems most of the world apart from America) this is not a ideaology driven by political belief, it is about scientific consensus.

You can call me a crock all you like but it doesn't change the facts that I have declared above. I enter everything with an open mind (as I did this article) until I did a bit of research, and discovered who was behind a lot of the arguments.
JM
June 19, 2006   07:48 PM PDT
 
>They're not really getting the right
>results if they're worried about
>their funding are they??

So do you want to dismiss the work of ALL scientists who are worried about getting funding, or only the ones who disagree with your predetermined stance on the issue?

>Faith isn't a factor in my stance.

Well, of course it is. You automatically dismiss anyone who dares contradict the Holy Writ of AGW alarmists as an uneducated crank just pushing his OWN agenda.

>Therefore who would you trust?

Certainly not scientists who have bound their professional reputation, ability to command funding and capacity to get published to AGW, and thus refuse to even consider any evidence that climate change is due to a whole HOST of factors, upon which human activity may only have a tiny effect.

>people being paid by oil
>companies to carry out spin?

As if the AGW lobby doesn't pay people to spin. Welcome to the real world.

It's like this, dominic. Answer the following questions honestly.

1. Do you acknowledge that the Earth has been going through warming and cooling cycles since long before humans were around?

2. What makes you think that process has stopped? In other words, even if humans ceased all activity that produces CO2, what makes you think the natural cycle will not continue?

3. Do you really, honestly think we know everything there is to know about the causes of warming and cooling cycles, or is there more to learn before drawing conclusions?

If the answer to #3 is "yes," then congratulations! You've just admitted that AGW is a religion to you. A religion, after all, is a closed belief system, like a book that allows no new information to be entered.
JM
June 19, 2006   07:51 PM PDT
 
>it is about scientific consensus

I'd rather it be about research and logic than who agrees with whom.
Dominic
June 19, 2006   07:59 PM PDT
 
>So you want to dismiss the work of >all scientists who are worried about >getting funding, or only the ones >who disagree with your >predetermined stance on the issue?

No, I used it to illustrate a point.

>Well, of course it is. You >automatically dismiss anyone who >dares contradict the Holy Writ of >AGW alarmists as an uneducated >crank just pushing his OWN agenda.

Nope, I don't automatically dismiss anyone. I don't think you have an agenda anymore than I do. We're not the ones with Agendas. I've formed my opinion by reading articles dismissing global warming and supporting it. And it was a rocky journey, I've swayed too and fro, and it is only recently that I've seen how conclusive the evidence is.

>Certainly not scientists who have >bound their professiona reputation, >ability to command funding and get >published to AGW, and refuse to >consider any evidence that climate >change is due to a whole HOST of >actors, of which human activity may >only be a tiny part.

I accept your arguments. Our climate is constantly changing due to many factors and even scientists who claim AGW is occuring don't deny other things are involved, but the greenhouse effect of C02 cannot be dismissed can it?



>It's like this, dominic. Answer the >following questions honestly.

>1. Do you acknowledge that the >Earth has been going through >warming and cooling cycles since >long before humans were around?

Yes

>2. What makes you think that >process has stopped?

Nothing

>3. Do you really, honestly think we >know everything there is to know >about the causes of warming and >cooling cycles, or is there more to >learn before drawing conclusions?

No

>4. If the answer to #3 is "yes," then >congratulations! You've just >admitted that AGW is a religion to >you.

I'm more reasonable than you give me credit for. Yes the earth has been warming and cooling, no we don't know everything about climate.

But these stances aren't mutually exclusive with AGW. I agree more research needs to be done I TOTALLY agree with that, and it needs to be done pronto. However, wouldn't you (as would I) want the results of this research to come from the best possible sources - as unbiased as possible? That is my worry. Any 'non-profit' institution (NCPA, CEI, CATO) that has had a whiff of the Oil industry cannot be taken seriously, I just don't see how they can.

Dominic
June 19, 2006   08:01 PM PDT
 
JM - the consensus has come about through research and logic - semantics!
JM
June 19, 2006   08:05 PM PDT
 
The "consensus" has come about through suppression of any contrary viewpoints or conflicting evidence. And as I keep saying, one doesn't vote on facts.
JM
June 19, 2006   08:09 PM PDT
 
>the greenhouse effect of C02
>cannot be dismissed can it?

Did you miss the chart that shows the CO2 levels increase AFTER temperature changes?
Dominic
June 20, 2006   11:27 AM PDT
 
No I did not miss that chart, and I wouldn't refute it.

However the conclusions that many people draw from it produce false logic and arguments. Let me explain.

The chart shows that C02 is released after AND while natural warming occurs.

Firstly this statement alone does not refute the stance that C02 causes warming. Drawing that conclusion is illogical, i'ts like saying if X=Y then X=Z. It's just that in the past C02 has never been a strong enough factor to initiate warming.

Secondly the 800 years lag is only small proprtion of the entire warming period, which lasts between 6000-10,000 years. So we have a natural warming that occurs, due to this, feedback effects (from Oceans and plant life especially) cause C02 to be released. This C02 will then help the warming. (due to the green house effect)

Now, these are natural effects that have occured throughout the planet's lifetime. Then man comes along. We release an unprecidented amount of C02 into the atmosphere in an extremely short period of time. No-one denies the greenhouse effect, we know that C02 isn't the strongest greenhouse gas, but it ia significant one. SO by releasing this C02 we're are bringing about an unnatural period of warming, which will result in - yes more C02 being released due to feedback effects, much in line with the chart mentioned above, however as we have intervened with nature, this will occur quicker.

there is a link here with some info about it:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/co2-in-ice-cores/

I agree, research is the answer, however the majority of study is pointing towards anthropogenic warming.

This should not be politicised. I'm sure one reason many don't like the climate change camp in America is because some (but not all) outspoken people who represent it are liberals. The so called 'religion' you talk about regarding AGW 'believers' could quite easily be used to describe the dismissive attittude of the far right conservatives. Wouldn't they just hate it if the 'left' were right; I mean correct...
JM
June 20, 2006   12:11 PM PDT
 
>Firstly this statement alone does
>not refute the stance that C02
>causes warming.

You must at least admit that the situation requires a great deal more study before we start knee-jerking ourselves back to the Stone Age.

>We release an unprecidented
>amount of C02 into the
>atmosphere in an extremely short
>period of time.

Don't fling words like "unprecedented" around so lightly, unless you're going back to the "we know everything" argument.

>SO by releasing this C02 we're
>are bringing about an unnatural
>period of warming

While the SO2 and aerosols we also release have no cooling effect whatsoever, for some reason? And the increased solar output only affects other planets besides Earth? I keep telling you, if you're not going to take ALL factors into acccount, you're no better than a hysteric.

>however as we have intervened
>with nature, this will occur quicker

Know what else will occur quicker? The natural processes that react to warming temperatures that begin the cooling cycle. Unless you think that nature only reacts to greenhouse gases released BY nature, that is.

>I agree, research is the answer

Good, then. We'll hear no more hysterical claims about looming disaster until more research is done, then, right?
Dominic
June 20, 2006   01:36 PM PDT
 
>You must at least admit that the situation >requires a great deal more study before >we start knee-jerking ourselves back to >the Stone Age.

Stone age? how does technology like solar power and Hydrogen fuel cells take us back to the stone Age? Again, your right-wing view thinks this is some ploy to 'transgress' society to pre-industrial times.

>Don't fling words like "unprecedented" >around so lightly, unless you're going >back to the "we know everything" >argument.

Okay, I'll put this as simply as I can. Unprecedented because no living being has as yet dug up a huge proportion of the carbon rich fossil fuels and burnt them at a constant,rapid and ever increasing rate. Unless of course the dinosaurs were diriving around in SUVs. so unprecendented is perfectly allowed.

>While the SO2 and aerosols we also >release have no cooling effect >whatsoever, for some reason? And the >increased solar output only affects other >planets besides Earth? I keep telling you, >if you're not going to take ALL factors >into acccount, you're no better than a >hysteric.

No, I don't dispute this whatsoever, global cooling - or dimming, has been occuring due to our pollution. This is recognised by scientists, and it has in fact been suggested that this has masked the amount of warming occuring, acting against roughly a 3rd of the warming. so what we're observing is 1/3 dimming and 2/3rds warming. However as our fuels have been getting cleaner the effects of aerosol pollution has been decliining, meaning global cooling/dimming has declined, especially across Europe.

As for solar variations, they do account for some warming, this is not disputed, however they cannot account for all the warming, ESPECIALLY, if global dimming is ooccuring. - a quick link to a standford press release - just search for it on google, you'll find many references.

http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/damon.html

Now, read everything I've written in my posts. Do I sound like a hysteric? I think I sound quite calm, I've dealt with as many points as I can. I think you think I'm a hysteric because I'm disagreeing with you - is there any possibility in that?

>Know what else will occur quicker? The >natural processes that react to warming >temperatures that begin the cooling >cycle. Unless you think that nature only >reacts to greenhouse gases released BY >nature, that is.

I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion, but please provide a link so I can read about (i'm being genuine by the way)

>Good, then. We'll hear no more >hysterical claims about looming disaster >until more research is done, then, right?

This is the interesting thing, I haven't made any hysterical claims whatsoever have I? So why did you say that? Personally I don't think the hysteria is justified, however I do think something needs to be acted upon soon.

Now I've responded to every bit of your post (something that you have failed to do on every reply to mine)

If the swathes of evidence suggested AGW was not real then I would not go with it. I am open to be swayed, believe me I don't like 'following' things that have no basis. So I'm open to persuasion through good evidence, whichever way that evidence goes.
Maureen
June 20, 2006   01:47 PM PDT
 
OK, so is the freaken shy falling or isn't it????

Has anyone asked the cows to stop passing gas?????

Just a thought
JM
June 20, 2006   01:54 PM PDT
 
>how does technology like solar
>power and Hydrogen fuel cells

The first of which will use far more land than is available to keep our society going, the second of which does not yet exist... and nuclear power was notably absent from your list of approved technology, as I expected.

>no living being has as yet dug up
>a huge proportion of the carbon
>rich fossil fuels and burnt them at
>a constant,rapid and ever
>increasing rate

How is CO2 released by human action any different from CO2 released by natural action, say, from volcanoes? Are you saying nature can't process CO2 released by industrial processes? Or are you saying there have never been events that released large amounts of CO2 before?

>however they cannot account for
>all the warming

Never said they did. What I said was that hysterical alarmists focus only on CO2, and basically dismissing all other factors. Much as you're doing.

>however I do think something
>needs to be acted upon soon

I just want to see your grand plan to stop all global warming and cooling.
Dominic
June 20, 2006   03:31 PM PDT
 
Again, again you have not answered all my points - I will answer yours in turn:

>The first of which will use far more >land than is available to keep our >society going, the second of which >does not yet exist... and nuclear >power was notably absent from your >list of approved technology, as I >expected.

I am pro-nuclear as a stop gap I believe that this is what is required. But nuclear is still a non-renewable source of energy. I also am in favour of combined heat and power stations which burn COAL - yes COAL. 2/3rds of the energy from coal is wasted via heat loss in the chimney and in the transformers on the grid. CHP doesn't waste the heat. Again - don't judge or assume. (I agree the environmental movement is way too ideological - nuclear has to be considered)

No one technology will keep us going but a combination will. My reason for choosing Solar and fuel cells (hopefully coming soon...) as an example was just to illustrate that this is not stone-age thinking. Again you deviated from most of my arguments to try and undermine me.

>How is CO2 released by human >action any different from CO2 >released by natural action, say, >from volcanoes? Are you saying >nature can't process CO2 released >by industrial processes? Or are you >saying there have never been >events that released large amounts >of CO2 before?

This is the thing, nature can process both man-made and natural C02, however man-made C02 is making it difficult for nature to process it all, because it's an unnatural excess - we've been throught this before... - a quick link here explains (from a volcano expert), however - again search the net and the truth will be revealed...
http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/frequent_questions/grp4/question458.html


>Never said they did. What I said was >that hysterical alarmists focus only >on CO2, and basically dismissing all >other factors. Much as you're doing.

I can see what you're doing, I guess it's clever in some ways... I've already stated that natural elements are causing heating - as is C02, I haven't focussed only on C02, I gave you a link about Solar radiation - that accounts for heating. The reason that C02 is a central point, is that it is tipping us over the balance from the amount of C02 nature can process happily, to where other drastic changes come along.

>I just want to see your grand plan to >stop all global warming and cooling.

Natural warming and cooling cannot be stopped unless we intervene. Which are are doing at this point. We are releasing a known greenhouse gas, this will result in increased warming.

Climate sceptics want to keep the debate open, well that's what we're doing. However it is disingenious when you don't actually acknowledge some of the information I'm providing you when I acknowledge and respond to everything you say. It seems like someone's not really listening doesn't it?

I'm serious about continuing this debate but plese respond to everything I have said, as I have. Thank you.
JM
June 20, 2006   03:42 PM PDT
 
Looks like what began as an attack on the idea that global warming could have more sources than human activity has fizzled down to "well, humans still might contribute to global warming," which I never denied. At this point you're arguing just to be contrary.

>man-made C02 is making it
>difficult for nature to process it all,
>because it's an unnatural excess

Where are you getting this idea? Are there piles of unprocessed CO2 sitting on a lot somewhere? You might have missed the fact that plants are flourishing -- not dying of CO2 excess.

>tipping us over the balance from
>the amount of C02 nature can
>process happily

And what is that amount, pray tell?

>We are releasing a known
>greenhouse gas, this will result in
>increased warming.

At the most, we could possibly bring on the onset of the cooling cycle a bit early.
Dominic
June 20, 2006   05:44 PM PDT
 
>Looks like what began as an >attack on the idea that global >warming could have more >sources than human activity has >fizzled down to "well, humans >still might contribute to global >warming," which I never denied. >At this point you're arguing just >to be contrary.

Sorry are we having the same debate? At no point have a thought humans MIGHT contribute to global warming, the argument is consistent that they do, and that natural effects also contribute however do not account the amount of warming that has taken place. I have provided links to sources for you to at least try and de-bunk, but you haven't even done that! You haven't provided any sources for your comments.


>Where are you getting this idea? >Are there piles of unprocessed >CO2 sitting on a lot somewhere?

Okay, I admit this is a complex issue, so please read this link below, and comment accordingly. It shows the amount of C02 in the atmosphere and corresponding human contribution.

http://www.hydrogen.co.uk/h2_now/journal/articles/2_global_warming.htm

No - C02 won't be on a lot someone because it's a gas, it therefore exists in the atmosphere. Jeez - this is turning into science 101 (apologies for the brief bout of sarcasm)

>You might have missed the fact >that plants are flourishing -- not >dying of CO2 excess.

when stating things please provide sources if possible, to add to the debate.

Are you denying the excess or are you saying that it's not so bad?

In the paper below it states that some plants benefit from an increase in C02 in the short term and some plants don't. Not all plants would be dying if there was an increase of C02.

How plants are affected by increasing C02 isn't the point of this debate, it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the planet is warming due to C02. good deflection though ,however if you want to read something about it go here for a research paper:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=122012

>And what is that amount, pray >tell?

440ppm (some scientists say 400ppm, but I'll go with the conservative figure..)

>At the most, we could possibly >bring on the onset of the cooling >cycle a bit early.

Hang on - sorry, I thought you said that humans have no effect on the atmosphere...through C02 emissions? Okay, can you please give me a reason for this in your next post, and I'll need sources as well.
Psychic Ferret
June 23, 2006   08:18 AM PDT
 
Hey Cav,

Read your "Top News Headlines":

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/ap/article.html?mi=D8IDLQP80&apc=9009
JM
June 23, 2006   08:43 AM PDT
 
(Ferret is referring to a news report that the earth is warmer than it's been in 2,000 years, which is based in part on such wildly variable estimation methods as pinecone data.)

Yes, as I've said many times, we're still emerging from the last ice age, which topped out at about 18,000 years ago. Global warming and cooling runs in cycles. Soon we'll get to hear the Libs screaming about how humans are to blame for global cooling (as they did in the 1970's). And then, as now, as always, we will ask how they plan to stop the natural processes of the Earth.
Psychic Ferret
June 23, 2006   12:39 PM PDT
 
I thought it was rather amusing that on a page that went to such lengths to prove a case against Human-assisted Global Warming (tm), there would be a headline that the most recent data are "additional supporting evidence ... that human activities are responsible for much of the recent warming."

Is it true that we are seeing a warming trend - Yes.

Does it justify further study - Yes.

Should we pursue alternatives to burning fossil-fuels for energy - Yes.

Should we run about like headless chickens and dismantle our industrial infrastructure - No.

Just my $0.02.
JM
June 23, 2006   01:42 PM PDT
 
It was almost as good as Al Gore giving his big speech about global warming in NYC... on the coldest day of the year, during a blizzard. Now that was comedic timing!
MrMeaner
July 8, 2006   04:38 PM PDT
 
This has been hilarious!
I don't think I need to comment.But I guess I have to know.
Psychic ferret, Dominic:
After having been told of NATURALLY occurring warming/cooling cycles a hundred bazillion times, can you not see that this whole subject is getting ridiculous? I mean, really.. What does the fact that we have been much warmer in the distant past, than we are now, mean to you people?
Are you just such liberal lap-dogs that nothing but your side's talking points register in your brains?
If thats the case, they really should teach you the difference between "here,boy", and "sic 'em".
I think they're feeding you last year's ALPO, still.
JM
July 8, 2006   11:16 PM PDT
 
Psychic Ferret was only pointing out the amusing timing of the news story. Dominic, on the other hand, appears to be an anthropogenic global warming fanatic
MrMeaner
July 9, 2006   09:46 AM PDT
 
My apologies ferret.
I guess when I see those kinds of phrases, I just kind of blur through the rest of the post. Didn't notice your last answer . (Though I don't really see the need for much more study on the warming aspect of it)
Dominic
July 19, 2006   03:39 PM PDT
 
JM - I'm not a fanatic. I just wanted to have a fair debate about the issue. A debate that you suddenely ducked out of.

And Mr Meaner - why is everything in America have to be about left or right? The reason for my initial post was that the issue is virtually non-partisan in the UK, and as far as I know in most of Europe. In America it has become something else. Whether or not politicians over there are using the issue for political gain is neither here nor there. Try and remember that America is not the only country in the world, and research is done all over. (In fact, it is the mass of independent, unconnected studies suggesting human influence on climate that makes the case so compelling).

Trying to undermine me by calling me a liberal means that on the off-chance (and I won't hold my breath) that I've written anything you vaguely agree with, you can dismiss it because of your dislike for my assumed political view.

If you must know I voted for the blues in our last election, and in the UK that means the Conservatives.

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