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One of the worst aspects of the aftermath of a national tragedy like the school shootings at Virginia Tech is watching the rush by many on the Left to politicise it. Most Americans are spending the first few shocked days mourning those who died, recognising the heroes and offering what comfort we can to those who survived and all their families. Opponents of the Second Amendment have been busy dusting off the same old arguments, giving them a new coat of paint and deploying them in their misguided attempt to bring totalitarianism to America. |
| IrishDiablo April 18, 2007 11:20 AM PDT I agree with you on every count, but (and you knew there was a but) I actually do like the idea of a detailed license for the purchase of ammo. I know that illegal guns are in abundance but I can't help but think that those illegal gun owners are, at some point, legally purchasing ammo for those guns. In addition, I like the idea of it listing your legal guns. Yes, someone could own a "legal" gun simply to buy ammo for an illegal gun, but not all criminals are that smart. | ||
| JM April 18, 2007 11:30 AM PDT >Yes, someone could own a "legal" >gun simply to buy ammo for an >illegal gun, but not all criminals >are that smart. Criminals will neither register their guns nor purchase ammo legally. If they have to get it from a store, they'll use a fake Firearm ID card, of course. Or they'll just LOAD THEIR OWN. Hell, I might just get some reloading equipment while I can, be the next Al Capone. | ||
| IrishDiablo April 18, 2007 01:36 PM PDT Not to dig up old bones, but the Columbine Kids bought their shit at Wal*Mart. Also, didn't the DC Sniper buy his guns and/or ammo legally? I know that your traditional Pablo Escobar or Bloods/Crips gang members won't shop at their local Guns & Ammo shops, but those nut cases that plan on killing a bunch of people and taking their own life in the process do not discriminate as to where they "load up". - Yes, these types are a smaller part of the criminal population, but every little bit helps. Wouldn't you agree? | ||
| JM April 18, 2007 02:12 PM PDT >Not to dig up old bones, but the >Columbine Kids bought their shit >at Wal*Mart. And if more people had done so, those dogs would have been put down after one shot. >Also, didn't the DC Sniper buy his >guns and/or ammo legally? Only if you count the "five-finger discount" as a legal purchase. The rifle was stolen, and the dealer illegally neglected to report it missing. >those nut cases that plan on >killing a bunch of people and >taking their own life in the process >do not discriminate as to where >they "load up". Then they will acquire what they want one way or another, while their potential victims are left defenseless by following the law. Look, don't you think it'd be a lot harder to kill "a bunch of people" if one of that bunch happens to be carrying? | ||
| IrishDiablo April 18, 2007 04:46 PM PDT >And if more people had done so, >those dogs would have been put >down after one shot. I don't see your logic in that but, okay. :-) >Only if you count the "five-finger >discount" as a legal purchase. The >rifle was stolen, and the dealer >illegally neglected to report it >missing. Ok, well I was incorrect on that one. So, shoot me. LOL >Look, don't you think it'd be a lot >harder to kill "a bunch of people" >if one of that bunch happens to be >carrying? So we should all send our kids to school armed in case they are involved in a school shooting such as what occurred at VT or Columbine? | ||
| IrishDiablo April 18, 2007 04:47 PM PDT Oops, forgot my carriage returns after my >'s, sorry. | ||
| JM April 18, 2007 06:51 PM PDT >I don't see your logic in that but, >okay. :-) If, say, a teacher or two had been armed, or had a gun in their cars, they might have stopped the killing much earlier. >So we should all send our kids to >school armed Define "kids." College students are normally 18 or older, as are teachers in any type of school of which I'm aware. Remember what I said about "maturity and responsible citizenship." | ||
| Name April 18, 2007 07:43 PM PDT Right on. | ||
| Doug April 21, 2007 02:16 PM PDT What's wrong with better gun control? You have to take a test to drive a car, why not take a psychology test to own a gun? You have to be 21 to drink and 18 to vote for a reason, how about 21 to own a gun? We get audited by the IRS for funny questionable tax returns, why not have the ATF audit gun owners? Red Flags can be if they have purchased 10+ guns within a few months, audit their homes to see if the guns are still in their possession or if they turned around and sold them to Criminals. Gun Shows, if there are so many loopholes with gun shows - just fix the dam things. Increase the penalties for illegal gun sales or buys. 3 Year Mandatory. These are not radical ideas to the privilege of gun ownership and I think are within the sprit of what our fore-fathers would have expected in today’s day an age. Arguments which state that these changes would not have changed the outcome in the VT or some other - do not hold water. Because you can not stop every crime but you may prevent some future event from happening. I am not a gun owner, but looked into buying a shot gun a few weeks ago, after I was robbed three times (truck, and boat twice). I don't have any intention of looking forward to shooting someone so I checked into bean bag rounds (I could easily unload 6 into someone without worrying too much). I was told that they are for police issue only and they cost $29 each. Fix this and I am a gun owner tomorrow. Stricter gun control laws have nothing to do with taking away people's guns or hurting law abiding people. | ||
| Raposa April 21, 2007 06:55 PM PDT <i>I was told that they are for police issue only and they cost $29 each. Fix this and I am a gun owner tomorrow. Stricter gun control laws have nothing to do with taking away people's guns or hurting law abiding people.</i> These two statements contradict each other. If we can simply trust people with guns, then there's no point in restricting nonlethal ammunition. Secondly, there are already some pretty strict age requirements on some guns. Handguns have an age requirement in most states already. There are waiting periods and background checks a plenty. What more would you add in there? Mandatory training in how to use a gun? Sure, that'd be fine by me. But how much more would you include? And then there are the ammo restrictions. A gun's useless without ammo, but there are places where the rules on the kinds of ammo you can buy and the amounts you can buy are ridiculously prohibitive, and you yourself encountered the problem of ammo that's just not available to 'ordinary folks'. | ||
| KAP April 21, 2007 07:12 PM PDT The more gun controls the more illeagal guns. Most people could walk the streets of any town and find anykind of gun they want and all the ammo they want as long as they have enough money to purchase them. | ||
| JM April 22, 2007 11:03 AM PDT >What's wrong with better gun >control? Do you mean more, or better? I have no problem with barring people who have been diagnosed as dangerous or mentally incompetent from buying guns. >You have to take a test to drive a >car, why not take a psychology >test to own a gun? The driving test is to determine whether you can drive a car, not whether you might do something stupid or dangerous with it. >You have to be 21 to drink and 18 >to vote for a reason, how about >21 to own a gun? Age limits do a great job of keeping alcohol and cigarettes out of the hands of minors, don't they? In any case, that should still be up to the states, and not the federal government, and (as Raposa said) most states already have strict age requirements in place. >Red Flags can be if they have >purchased 10+ guns within a few >months, audit their homes to see >if the guns are still in their >possession or if they turned >around and sold them to >Criminals. The government has no right to violate my Constitutional rights that way, nor should it. If I could afford to buy 10+ guns at a time, I probably would do so every time a big gun show took place. Audit people's homes? Didn't I just get done explaining that I'd rather not live in a police state? >Gun Shows, if there are so many >loopholes with gun shows - just fix >the dam things. There is no such thing as a "gun show loophole." No one can even explain what that means. Any purchase made from a gun dealer at a gun show is run through the same Insta-Check system they use in actual stores. >the privilege of gun ownership Actually, it's a right, not a privilege. Look it up. >Because you can not stop every >crime but you may prevent some >future event from happening. Taking away guns from law-abiding citizens would not do that. Allowing law-abiding citizens to exercise their right of self-defense would. >Stricter gun control laws have >nothing to do with taking away >people's guns or hurting law >abiding people. But law-abiding people are the only ones who would obey stricter gun laws! Why is this such a difficult concept? Criminals do not buy their guns legally, they do not register them, and they do not buy only the "allowed" types of ammo. What makes you think they would obey stricter laws? | ||
| JM April 22, 2007 11:03 AM PDT This might explain something about the so-called "gun show loophole" the anti-gun lobby talks about: http://www.flashbunny.org/content/loophole.html | ||
| Doug April 25, 2007 12:24 AM PDT JM I can't see how you would disagree with anything I said. This is in the best interest of gun owners. Kids in NYC can drive down to NC and buy guns like candy then drive them back to NYC and sell them on the street. This is bad. Better controls will stop this from happening. Would you not be willing to risk an audit from the ATF, to help prevent illegal guns from hitting the streets. Your comment of a police state is a little lame. If you are a law abiding citizen then you should welcome an audit for public good. Gun laws should be aimed at stopping illegal gun sales. I am also for mandatory min sentences for illegal gun owner ship and sales. 3 Year min if you sell a gun or buy one illegally. | ||
| Doug April 25, 2007 12:31 AM PDT JM Regarding mass gun owner ship, we are not all as responsible as you are tempers flair. I can tell you that if I had access to gun I would have used it in anger many times. I am a nice guy with two kids and college degree. But anyones temper can get away from them. Plus if your in a bar and you end up needing/wanting to throw down with someone - a good all fashion fight can go south pretty quick when someone pulls out a gun. I miss the good ole days, when all you had to worry about was a knife. I just don't get the NRA's stance, they need to lighten up a little, just like the other side of issue needs to lighten up. | ||
| JM April 25, 2007 06:19 AM PDT >I can't see how you would >disagree with anything I said. It's because you're wrong. >This is in the best interest of gun >owners. Yeah. More like the best interest of an intrusive, powerful federal government. No, thanks. >Kids in NYC can drive down to NC >and buy guns like candy then >drive them back to NYC and sell >them on the street. This is bad. That would be illegal, which (for those of you who might be a little slow) means there are already laws against it. Also, where is your proof of this claim? Or is this merely a hypothetical situation that "needs" to be stopped with draconian laws? >Better controls will stop this from >happening. By "better controls," you mean searching every car entering NYC, perhaps? Or maybe you mean punishing law-abiding citizens and taking away their rights because criminals might commit crimes? Don't you know that all gun dealers must already register the sales with the government, and must run a background check on all customers? >Would you not be willing to risk an >audit from the ATF No. They have no right to do so. >to help prevent illegal guns from >hitting the streets There is no law that will do this. We have laws against drugs, yet illegal drugs are everywhere, are they not? >If you are a law abiding citizen >then you should welcome an audit >for public good. Whoa... I believe that sounded better in the original German. Sometime around 1934, say. >Gun laws should be aimed at >stopping illegal gun sales. I'm all for that. For instance, background checks should include certain information currently protected by privacy laws. >I can tell you that if I had access >to gun I would have used it in >anger many times. No, probably only once. >But anyones temper can get away >from them. It's a standard Leftist claim that people are not responsible for their own behavior; that we're all just animals who cannot control our emotions. >Plus if your in a bar and you end >up needing/wanting to throw down >with someone Then you ought to leave before you hurt someone... and get hurt in return. Guns are for self-defense, not threatening people in a bar (hint: that's illegal). But I don't really expect anti-gun people to understand that. | ||
| Doug April 25, 2007 05:08 PM PDT Trust me I would not tell you a lie. I got nothing to hide - behind the my name. I am not anti gun. I am however anti hunting with a gun, unless you are bear hunting with .22 hand gun. There is no sport with shooting a goat two hill tops away. If you are doing it to feed your family then kill away. But to do it for sport is BS - go get a bow an arrow. I once saw this show where a guy could not walk or move his arms shoot a deer by breathing in and using his breath to trigger the gun. He was shooting from his car....Wow real sporting. Or this other show where a man was hunting elephant - not too hard to track seeing how they were standing 150 feet away eating trees. I could give a crap that the elephant was killed just don't try and pump it up like it was hunting. Also your stance on big bad government is also a little lame. | ||
| JM April 25, 2007 05:58 PM PDT >I am however anti hunting with a >gun Tell that to my Dad, who was able to put meat on the table for several meals -- for a family of five -- for the price of a shotgun shell or two. >If you are doing it to feed your >family then kill away. Oh, well, thanks for allowing it, then. >But to do it for sport is BS - go >get a bow an arrow. That's YOUR privilege, which you are free to exercise for yourself. But who the hell are you to decide that a person may be allowed to hunt for one reason but not another? That's what I can't stand about the Left -- the intrusive, draconian, nanny-state nosiness. YOU think sport hunting is BS -- so don't YOU do it. I promise not to force you. >Also your stance on big bad >government is also a little lame. Right; because we all know the federal government (ie, some bureaucrats in DC) should decide when and where I can exercise what rights it allows me to have, where I should spend my money, and what is best for me in all things. The government is my friend. | ||
| Doug April 29, 2007 01:12 PM PDT That's funny that you think I am from the left...life long republican....I am a sportsman first and foremost. Don't have any issues killing to feed your families. I do so on a regualar basis except I used a hook and line, knife or a speargun. A little more sporting than 5 guns in a blind, quacking away in front of their decoys and then unloading.... At any given time a shark or baracuda can come up and take my leg off without warning....try bringing up a 20 pound grouper with a 40 pound baracuda milling about. That is hunting for sport. Its not that I am going to decide for you to use a gun to hunt...you, like all people can do what you want within the law...but my personal view is that hunting with a gun has zero sport...so call in hunting...just don't call in sport hunting or hunting for sport.... | ||
| elvez73 April 30, 2007 06:40 PM PDT That is probally one of the most concise and well-reasoned arguments that I have read about this issue, I agree with it entirely. | ||
| Doug May 1, 2007 12:49 AM PDT Start a thread on Cuba...So I can vent that this is the only country which my government will not let me go to so I can fish. | ||
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